Do You Believe In Magic?

[DJ Droood]

I think it depends on the extent of your knowledge and what you choose to accept.

very true.

[Dragonwyst]

...and I don't think anyone has mentioned the Placebo Effect, or the way in which a story can suddenly bring hidden truths to conscious awareness in a whole new way. No-one has touched on how an fantasy thing can be a metaphor and the metaphor is a truth and thus a thing of fantasy becomes a truth through the meaning link. What about those strange little synchronicities that allow us to become aware of things we need to become aware of?

How about our ability change the way we feel by changing our own inner story - sure it's narrative therapy, but the transformation can be magical.

So for me - magic is my relationship with my environment - spending time in wonder and awe as mentioned before, it's those little things that transform and change lives, perceptions, directions. There is intention -to me, intention is all the prayer and spell I ever need. It doesn't guarantee a specific answer, but it guarantees attention that then allows my subconsious to create new ways of looking at problems or attunes to potential solutions. Magic it all that pattern recognition stuff that happens at a subconscious level and keeps me safe through "gut feel". Some people might just say that all this is just psychology, but it's more than that. It's a mixture of psychology and art and - well - life. And I can imagine all these being ingredients in the cauldron that lead to a potion of rich, deep and wonderful living - Awen.

I would not want more than this. When people talk about magic that is designed to change things too much, like love potions or revenge spells, I become uneasy. I don't like meddling.

[Cynewulf]

I'm surprised no one has yet mentioned Aleister Crowley's definition of Magick as "the Science and Art of causing Change to occur in conformity with Will".

This basically means that any willed act which is not habitual or reactive in nature is Magick. This is an incredibly important definition as it drastically opens up the playing field for defining Magick.

[Attila]

I think magic is all there is fundamentally. Everything else are comparatively superficial expressions of that.

I don’t think the will can do much causally or directly, but certain magical thoughts and ideas can be made manifest in a round about way; the world lends itself to ones persuasion.

If say the will wishes for a given thing to come about [could be an idea, a philosophy, an occurence or an invention], and there is no way to do that through its vehicle, then I think that as the mind, infinity and information have no spatial locations, then things may be brought about by means outside the body/brain i.e. from the source of all things and connected by info.

[Bart]

In my experience, most magical rituals involve visualisation and release into the universe. The better the visualisation, the better the magic. In my mind this proces is destined to work. You point your brain in the general direction and your sub conscious will make the decissions to get there. I think neuro linguistic programming uses the same principle.
It also helps that you always read that you should not set the target very sharp. If I accept random outcomes, because I think they are outcomes, I allways have succes.
The magick of Allister Crowley will never be proven or disproven. It is elloborate and requires lengthy preparation. If it fails there is a heap of possibilities where it could have gone wrong, so the reason must lie with the magickian.

I beleive in the magic of the human brain and the wonders of nature.

[DJ Droood]

In my experience, most magical rituals involve visualisation and release into the universe.

Release of what, exactly?

If I accept random outcomes, because I think they are outcomes, I allways have succes.

This is very similar to the way some see a sunset or a piece of chocolate cake as a sign of God's love...or how a conspiracy theorist thinks every strange car parked on his street is the CIA watching him....you already have your outcome decided, you are just making random events fit your conclusions....which may be comforting, but I believe it is unconnected with truth...usually...unless, of course, the CIA is watching you. .

[Bart]

In my experience, most magical rituals involve visualisation and release into the universe.

Release of what, exactly?.

Your intention: couples to the all-knowing/universal will. The idea is that the energy of your visualisation sets the event in motion. If you take it to extremes, you end up with "the Secret".

If I accept random outcomes, because I think they are outcomes, I allways have succes.

This is very similar to the way some see a sunset or a piece of chocolate cake as a sign of God's love...or how a conspiracy theorist thinks every strange car parked on his street is the CIA watching him....you already have your outcome decided, you are just making random events fit your conclusions....which may be comforting, but I believe it is unconnected with truth...usually...unless, of course, the CIA is watching you. .

The DIA (Deity Information Agency). Yes, if you take wide enough parameters, everything will fit.

[DJ Droood]

In my experience, most magical rituals involve visualisation and release into the universe.

Release of what, exactly?.

Your intention: couples to the all-knowing/universal will. The idea is that the energy of your visualisation sets the event in motion. If you take it to extremes, you end up with "the Secret".

Thank you....question, though...if the Universe is all-knowing, why go to the trouble of releasing? Wouldn't the Universe do what was best in every case, even if we just sat around eating chips and watching Dexter instead of releasing our visualizations? (don't get me wrong...I am a big fan of releasing my visualizations...just pondering.)

The DIA (Deity Information Agency). Yes, if you take wide enough parameters, everything will fit.

DIA...haha...also, if you let the seams out a bit everything will fit...or just be realistic and buy pants with stretchy waistbands...nobody can tell....(My Secret)

[Bart]

In my mind it is not the universe which is set in motion, you set yourself in motion. And this will create a self fullfilling prophecy. Magical in itself. If you only watch Dexter the universe will decide for you and that will be probably more reruns..

[DJ Droood]

In my mind it is not the universe which is set in motion, you set yourself in motion. And this will create a self fullfilling prophecy. Magical in itself. If you only watch Dexter the universe will decide for you and that will be probably more reruns..

Fair enough...although I still think we are back to using magic as a word to describe a natural, identifiable process...if we 'set ourselves in motion' we are doing something...we are making tangible steps towards our goals...if it takes lighting candles and reciting rhymes to get us to do that, fine....but I believe we are committing a Post Hoc logical fallacy to think the candles and rhymes 'caused' our goals to manifest, although the act of candle lighting might have be a first, symbolic step towards achieving our goals.

[Bart]

Agreed, but the same goes for sunsets. It is a pure act of a rotating world, which causes us to bring out the wine and look your loved one in the eyes. Apparantly we need something magical to set us in motion: proclaim love for spous, take steps toward future etc.

[DJ Droood]

Agreed, but the same goes for sunsets. It is a pure act of a rotating world, which causes us to bring out the wine and look your loved one in the eyes. Apparantly we need something magical to set us in motion: proclaim love for spous, take steps toward future etc.

I am a huge fan of wine, romance, sunsets and poetry...the combination of which *should not* (I won't go as far as to say *cannot*) be boiled down in a laboratory test tube, and the outcome of which could be described as "magic". Perhaps even bitter, cynical materialist and wide-eyed, credulous theists can agree to simply shut up for awhile and savour such a moment.

[Bart]

Yes, agreed and I am not even bitter, cynical materialist or a wide-eyed, credulous theists. Most magic(k) is based on our wish to control the universe and our pattern finding parts of the brain. Maybe there are other forms, but I have not studied Voodoo or windi.

[wolf560]

"Magic is as Magic does"...

Yes, I believe that it is possible but I do not believe that it can do much without physical effort (cast all the spells you want, you still have to write a resume and hand it to the HR Dept).

[DJ Droood]

"Magic is as Magic does"...

Yes, I believe that it is possible but I do not believe that it can do much without physical effort (cast all the spells you want, you still have to write a resume and hand it to the HR Dept).

Hey Wolf...I thought maybe you had re-uped or something! I think most magical systems probably maintain a pragmatic back door..."The Lord helps those who help themselves"...of course, most "mundane" systems hang on to some magical thinking....just look at sports teams...we could all use "a little luck" sometimes, most don't tempt the fates and I would guess that even the most "rational" hold on to some sort of concept of "karma".

[wolf560]

Hello Deej..!!!!

I got extremely busy with my real life Druid-Pagan-Heathen stuff...
Started working a 12-hour day for a local Defense Contracting company that sends stuff to the military
Volunteered for Pagan Pride Day here in Phoenix.... (I'm now the Lead Coordinator for Rituals)
Elected Guild Chief of the Scholars Guild-ADF, and Scribe for my Grove

Yeah, in simple words, "Life got in the way"

But it is good to be back...!!!

[Equidae]

I don't believe in magic in terms of saying some words and presenting some offerings in and of itself will get you a result. I do think there is the possibility for your wants and actions to lead to changes in the world around you. I hesitate to involve things like 'quantum' or 'chaos theory' since they are much abused by the Deepak Chopra and The Secret types, but within reason I think they could result in what we would refer to as 'magic.' I think it's easy to get trapped in the cognitive dissonance and logical fallacies that make you tend to ignore or rationalize negative results to suit your belief systems as well as have a knee-jerk reaction to credit the supernatural.

Despite my inherent skepticism I still find paganism to be very meaningful. Deities can still be celebrated and invoked. They have many positive traits that warrant emulation. To me, even their negative aspects are valuable since they both illustrate potential pitfalls and teach you to appreciate the foibles we all have. Invoking a deity or performing a ritual can put you in the right mindset to achieve your goals, and be and all around better person. I may not necessarily believe there is an honest to goodness spirit in a stream, but treating it as an actual entity tends to result in a conscious tendency to treat it better than I might otherwise have.

[DJ Droood]

Despite my inherent skepticism I still find paganism to be very meaningful. Deities can still be celebrated and invoked. They have many positive traits that warrant emulation. To me, even their negative aspects are valuable since they both illustrate potential pitfalls and teach you to appreciate the foibles we all have. Invoking a deity or performing a ritual can put you in the right mindset to achieve your goals, and be and all around better person. I may not necessarily believe there is an honest to goodness spirit in a stream, but treating it as an actual entity tends to result in a conscious tendency to treat it better than I might otherwise have.

I agree...I think stories become myths and legends and part of religious traditions because they have encoded truths about moral and ethical behaviour (it *is* good not to kill one another), and even dietary cautions (trichinosis was unknown to the authors of the Old Testament, but avoiding pork seemed to be a good idea.)

Of course, times change...perhaps this was the understanding of the Druids who supposedly had injunctions against writing their wisdom down...perhaps to avoid having it set in amber, but rather keep it alive and growing.

[Equidae]

Despite my inherent skepticism I still find paganism to be very meaningful. Deities can still be celebrated and invoked. They have many positive traits that warrant emulation. To me, even their negative aspects are valuable since they both illustrate potential pitfalls and teach you to appreciate the foibles we all have. Invoking a deity or performing a ritual can put you in the right mindset to achieve your goals, and be and all around better person. I may not necessarily believe there is an honest to goodness spirit in a stream, but treating it as an actual entity tends to result in a conscious tendency to treat it better than I might otherwise have.

I agree...I think stories become myths and legends and part of religious traditions because they have encoded truths about moral and ethical behaviour (it *is* good not to kill one another), and even dietary cautions (trichinosis was unknown to the authors of the Old Testament, but avoiding pork seemed to be a good idea.)

Of course, times change...perhaps this was the understanding of the Druids who supposedly had injunctions against writing their wisdom down...perhaps to avoid having it set in amber, but rather keep it alive and growing.

If that was the Druid's intention then I think that was smart of them. Getting locked into a specific dogma makes a religion stale, and often harms adherents. I think you also get too caught up in why an author chose a specific sentence structure (usually ignoring the possibility of a typo!) instead of trying to find a way to live your life ethically and logically. One of my favorite examples is the hubbub over the 2012 Mayan calender signalling doomsday because the calender stops. Personally, I feel that Mr. Mayan Stonecarver probably finished chiseling the 2012 baktun, and realizing he was several hundred years ahead decided he'd take a cocoa break. Since it was probably hot outside and that hammer had to have been heavy, he also probably decided to take a nap on the smallpox blanket those visiting Spanish were so kind to hand out and the rest is history

[wolf560]

Following a mixture of Celtic and Mayan beliefs myself (Mother is Mexican, Father is Irish) I see some similarities.

As far as the Calendar Round (or the Long Count) goes... it is simply a 5125 year cycle that repeats, not an 'end-of-the-world' as we know it.
(For the record, there is no 'Galactic Butterfly either' that is just some Neo-Pagan UPG that has no basis in the Al'qij philosophy)

'Magic' by my definition is the manipulation of energy that already exists... and in my case it is the conscious effort to make something happen by any physical means.

Example; my 'Money Spell' is simple...
Step One- designate a place for the 'Magic to occur
Step Two- make that place very noticeable
Step Three- place any spare change upon that altar

That's it... Eezee Peezee.... and after awhile all my spare change adds up to the amount necessary for my upcoming trip to Ireland.
It has taken me about a year to collect the $1,100.00 I need but it was oh so worth it.

Magic is as Magic does... and you do not get something for nothing.
That is the first rule of thermodynamics "The principle of the conservation of energy states that energy can neither be created nor destroyed."
....and I believe it has an application in Magic as well, just like Aristotle once said... "As Above, So Below'