Do You Believe In Magic?

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Re: Do You Believe In Magic?

Postby Willowen » 13 Apr 2012, 06:09

Merlyn wrote:It's no doubt that the making of many musical styles come from the magical influence of mind altering substance. And just as inspiring, even more so, the magic of nature and the natural wonders.
Music, in its own right, can be a magical thing..

Like so many things, magic plays its music in the harmony of mind and body. The dance expressions of music will speak in ways words cannot.


Bravo! And quite eloquently said I might add. :applause: In my humble opinion, magic and music coexist. Music, when combined with the elements of a good tale, is the most empowering magic that I know. :wolf:
"The Way itself is a strengthening of spirit, a growing closer to the balance that governs the world. Progress is slow along the Way, but every step of the journey is like a note in the oldest tune of all. When you have the tune complete, you complete yourself." from Moonheart by Charles De Lint
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Re: Do You Believe In Magic?

Postby Merlyn » 13 Apr 2012, 13:34

Ahh yes Julia,
We must add to the list the magic of story telling and the talent of the Bard. Simple as chanting the Awen, magical realms awake. The talents of story telling often included tone and inflection which arouse deep inner magic.

From there we can go into shapeshifting and more.
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ac o wybod, gwybod yn gyfiawn;
ac o wybod yn gyfiawn ei garu;
ac o garu, caru Duw.
Duw a phob daioni.
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Re: Do You Believe In Magic?

Postby Bart » 13 Apr 2012, 22:18

Ah yes and some form either come from hell or can go to it.
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Re: Do You Believe In Magic?

Postby Merlyn » 14 Apr 2012, 01:42

Do we "believe in Hell"? :thinking:

Now that is a question isn't it?

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Last edited by Merlyn on 14 Apr 2012, 01:54, edited 2 times in total.
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ac yn nawdd, nerth;
ac yn nerth, ddeall;
ac yn neall, gwybod;
ac o wybod, gwybod yn gyfiawn;
ac o wybod yn gyfiawn ei garu;
ac o garu, caru Duw.
Duw a phob daioni.
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Re: Do You Believe In Magic?

Postby Frenn » 14 Apr 2012, 01:48

Isn't this the part where someone whips out Pascal's Wager?
I think the biggest problem I've seen with this thread is that lack of premises laid out for discussion. It is simply crippling
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Re: Do You Believe In Magic?

Postby Merlyn » 14 Apr 2012, 01:56

Can one believe in what one does not understand? :thinking:

So, we go back to the OP question..

I was raised as a Christian and fully believed in prayer. I also began to believe that Christ was telling the truth when he said that we would do the miracles he was doing and even greater. Now I have chosen the Druid path, but find myself wondering if there is such a thing as magic and if so, how does it differ from Christian miracles, or new age intention?

Is magic simply ritual that brings us closer to the Divine through that ritual, or is it tapping into some spiritual power and changing things in the apparent world? Is magic something for parlor tricks and the only thing we can expect in this life is a crap shoot?

I have my own ideas about magic, but I want to hear what you think. I am new to the Druid path and there is much to absorb. This is one that is giving me some fits. Help an old man out!


And the real message and life, written accounts and all of Christ.
Is making a blind man see any different from forgiving? How do we see magic?
And as Drui, do we see magic as empowering? Now do we see Wicca, an influence as much as Christian in the renaissance of druidry?

All good questions and worth the skeptical process of good discussion.
So.. If you “believe” in anything.. the first question is why?
Is it because you were taught to? Told to? Or brought up with the lore? Or did you learn to believe form your own experience?

The latter is how Christ found his way.

Food for thought..

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Last edited by Merlyn on 14 Apr 2012, 02:07, edited 1 time in total.
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ac o wybod, gwybod yn gyfiawn;
ac o wybod yn gyfiawn ei garu;
ac o garu, caru Duw.
Duw a phob daioni.
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Re: Do You Believe In Magic?

Postby Frenn » 14 Apr 2012, 02:01

Most definitely.
I think that this belief is what has advanced science throughout recorded history. Without such belief, the desire to expand one's knowledge would be much diminished. A hard skeptic wouldn't be on my list of experimental scientists

(this all in regards to believing in what one does not understand. and im finished contributing to the derailment of the OP question)


[edit: clarifying statement)
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Re: Do You Believe In Magic?

Postby Merlyn » 14 Apr 2012, 02:09

All in good fun, sometimes people need to branch out a bit.

Let's take the OP question to a new level
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ac yn nawdd, nerth;
ac yn nerth, ddeall;
ac yn neall, gwybod;
ac o wybod, gwybod yn gyfiawn;
ac o wybod yn gyfiawn ei garu;
ac o garu, caru Duw.
Duw a phob daioni.
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Re: Do You Believe In Magic?

Postby Merlyn » 14 Apr 2012, 02:13

We ask ourselves often if religion is anything different from magic...

Can anyone really believe in one religion and not accept another as real as well? It is obviously real to each of us, no matter.
To say "our" realigion is the "truth" and reject another is delusion.
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Dyro, Dduw, dy nawdd;
ac yn nawdd, nerth;
ac yn nerth, ddeall;
ac yn neall, gwybod;
ac o wybod, gwybod yn gyfiawn;
ac o wybod yn gyfiawn ei garu;
ac o garu, caru Duw.
Duw a phob daioni.
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Re: Do You Believe In Magic?

Postby Frenn » 14 Apr 2012, 02:14

Indeed.
I know in some of the theology classes I've taken, it's been postulated that perhaps miracles and the such were simply the divine working in way we don't understand (perhaps even being completely beyond anything we can grasp). One would think that research into the impossible has gotten us places before, and has left us in place in other areas. Take, for example, the very few laws we have within mathematics and science. We have plenty of very good theories/theorems, but very few taken as pure fact. People have taken steps to modify logical and mathematical thought in order to better prove theorems (with very little success). Perhaps deeper thought on such questions will eventually lead to greater understanding.
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Re: Do You Believe In Magic?

Postby Merlyn » 14 Apr 2012, 02:24

We, often use the results of experiments as validation.
Cause and affect...

Magic often is considered this way. However it is more a "commitment" that causes the result. Psycology of magic is often blurred in the definition of what we see.
Humanity however needs to aspire to higher goals, need I say more?

In what Jesus really did, speaks past what the religion made around him could ever do. He IMO is an example of the real magician. One who really walks the walk.
His truth unfortunately was gerrymandered into a judaism... if you get my drift.

I love the man, no matter. My personal life is that of Drui.
How that works out in the end is not up to me.

I however "believe" in the magic of life. That includes all existence, all that is.
All life.
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Dyro, Dduw, dy nawdd;
ac yn nawdd, nerth;
ac yn nerth, ddeall;
ac yn neall, gwybod;
ac o wybod, gwybod yn gyfiawn;
ac o wybod yn gyfiawn ei garu;
ac o garu, caru Duw.
Duw a phob daioni.
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Re: Do You Believe In Magic?

Postby Merlyn » 14 Apr 2012, 02:31

it's been postulated that perhaps miracles and the such were simply the divine working in way we don't understand


True,
I call this "the power of the collective soul".
One, if not the most powerful, of all magic.

In light,
:merlyn1:
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Dyro, Dduw, dy nawdd;
ac yn nawdd, nerth;
ac yn nerth, ddeall;
ac yn neall, gwybod;
ac o wybod, gwybod yn gyfiawn;
ac o wybod yn gyfiawn ei garu;
ac o garu, caru Duw.
Duw a phob daioni.
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Re: Do You Believe In Magic?

Postby Frenn » 14 Apr 2012, 02:37

Merlyn wrote:
it's been postulated that perhaps miracles and the such were simply the divine working in way we don't understand


True,
I call this "the power of the collective soul".
One, if not the most powerful, of all magic.

In light,
:merlyn1:


My question at this point would be in regards to the common trying to attain this divinity. Is this wrong, or is it the best possible action one could take?
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Re: Do You Believe In Magic?

Postby DJ Droood » 14 Apr 2012, 13:27

Merlyn wrote:
it's been postulated that perhaps miracles and the such were simply the divine working in way we don't understand


True,
I call this "the power of the collective soul".
One, if not the most powerful, of all magic.

In light,
:merlyn1:



I believe it is drunken leprechauns that create miracles, out of sheer boredom, but that is just my opinion.
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Re: Do You Believe In Magic?

Postby Merlyn » 14 Apr 2012, 13:59

My question at this point would be in regards to the common trying to attain this divinity. Is this wrong, or is it the best possible action one could take?


If we are going to look at the OP question and in regard to Christ. I have to separate the wheat from the chaff. By that I mean what Christ did and stood for and the Judaism and denominations of it that came from him. I would like to speak to the message of Christ himself. If we try to look at this from the religion, then we run into many falsehoods, including rapture, predictions of apocalypse and so on.

So...
If we can agree on this perspective, then I would have to say, from the actions and life of Christ, seeking is part of aspiring to God. This process is normal, and perhaps needed to gain a true "self". If we are going to only take the words translated by religions, we then are never fully vested in our own beliefs IMO.

So, the latter, it is the best possible action. If we then find ourselves in the light of Christ, we then have and should always come to this by always seeking.
No other way would be as real or in the walk of Christ. One has to ask "Would Christ himself ever want others persecuted for their belief?"
For the Son of God to have himself been persecuted for his own belief, how could it be possible in his forgiveness to ever want such a thing in his own name?

It is by his actions that he himself speaks through time. And if we must discover how we are internally wired to understand the divine, I am confident he would understand we need this vesting. There IMO is a vast difference between being what is considered a Christian, and Christ. That is sad in many ways, that the actions of Christ are in often direct conflict with the religions that came from his life.

I think to answer the OP question, we need to first think in terms of these two directions of thought.

:merlyn:
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ac yn nawdd, nerth;
ac yn nerth, ddeall;
ac yn neall, gwybod;
ac o wybod, gwybod yn gyfiawn;
ac o wybod yn gyfiawn ei garu;
ac o garu, caru Duw.
Duw a phob daioni.
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Re: Do You Believe In Magic?

Postby Bart » 14 Apr 2012, 18:19

This being the skeptical druid:
Do we believe in Christ? and Why?
Collective soul? What is it and does it exist? How do you know. If we really are one, do I lust for myself if I look at a beautifull girl?

Magic is a way to try to take control over your life, which is impossible. Visualisation is a psychology tool to focus your mind, nothing magical.

Do we consider distance treatments with energy Magical? Does anybody have some scientific data on it?
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Re: Do You Believe In Magic?

Postby Bart » 14 Apr 2012, 18:21

DJ Droood wrote:
Merlyn wrote:
it's been postulated that perhaps miracles and the such were simply the divine working in way we don't understand


True,
I call this "the power of the collective soul".
One, if not the most powerful, of all magic.

In light,
:merlyn1:



I believe it is drunken leprechauns that create miracles, out of sheer boredom, but that is just my opinion.


I thought you didn't believe in the litle buggars. But to be honest I think it's the unicorns fed up with being brushed by virgins. :grin:
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Re: Do You Believe In Magic?

Postby Frenn » 14 Apr 2012, 18:49

Bart wrote:This being the skeptical druid:
...
Does anybody have some scientific data on it?


This being the skeptical druid I would pose a few questions.
Since when does a justified belief of a skeptic require scientific data to back it? Doesn't scientific data only support the claim that something is likely to be true, or is true for the statistically significant domain of the experiment? This is one of the problems of inductive arguments, that is to say the premises of the argument only make the conclusion likely to be true.
In a situation like this, I would say that it is better for us to keep to deductive arguments, with as few, clearly stated, premises as possible.
To pre-emptively head off some objections, I would refer to Rene Descartes Meditations, if only to show that one can skeptically doubt very many things, and still draw a conclusion without scientific data (his arguments are quite solid if one presumes that one's understanding of logic is correct).

To be honest, I'm not entirely sure how we could apply deductive reasoning to the question of magic, other than going through some of St. Augustine's and Thomas Aquinas' theological arguments and beliefs in regards to Catholicism.
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Re: Do You Believe In Magic?

Postby DJ Droood » 14 Apr 2012, 19:00

Bart wrote:Do we believe in Christ? and Why?


I feel the spirit of revival about to sweep through Skeptical Druid again...let me set the mood....

:candle: :candle: :candle: :a: :candle: :candle: :candle:


Frenn wrote:Since when does a justified belief of a skeptic require scientific data to back it?


What about unjustified lack of belief? What if something seems so trivial and nonsensical, that we rarely think about it, and when we do, we just huff "bullocks" to ourselves and continue with our lives, not thinking about it much?



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Re: Do You Believe In Magic?

Postby Frenn » 14 Apr 2012, 19:10

DJ Droood wrote:
What about unjustified lack of belief? What if something seems so trivial and nonsensical, that we rarely think about it, and when we do, we just huff "bullocks" to ourselves and continue with our lives, not thinking about it much?



That would still be a justified belief, just in the negative. If something seems that trivial and nonsensical to someone, then you have reasoned in the opposite direction. Neither has to be, necessarily, better than the other
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