Do You Believe In Magic?

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Re: Do You Believe In Magic?

Postby Merlyn » 14 Apr 2012, 19:32

Is magic something for parlor tricks and the only thing we can expect in this life is a crap shoot?


More than one question here. :thinking:
When one is contacted, or say: a miracle happens, is this magic? coincidence? who is to say what reality is defined.
And, is what people do in church, healing rites, breaking of bread, drinking of ritual blood and all .... not magic or ritual?

To the collective soul. Question posed. What is it?
How does it work?
Take a room full of people, like minded people all thinking in terms of the same goal, to heal one person. Now add the divine preacher who channels all of that energy from all of those people through his hand to the sick person .."presto-magic" s/he is healed. This is one very old "parlor trick". The preacher of course tells all that he is divine and that God did it at his command or wish. Some are honest however, and tend to actually heal and let the congregation know they are part of the miracle to happen, and it does. One could also look at this from a scientific perspective, as the placebo affect. Make the sick person truly believe s/he is going to heal and the mind-body self healing begins. Just one success and the preacher or rabbi is legit and thought to be divine. Make a miracle happen and one becomes a saint..

In the time of Christ as a Rabbi, it was very common for this to be done. However, the collective soul exists on another plane also. That of all-souls. We of course know of all-souls "day" is it any different from Halloween? Most would say they are one-in-the-same.

So... where is this dividing line between the old ways and organized religion?

If results are found on both sides of this line.. who is right? who is wrong?
Neither IMO unless one or the other is delusional in thinking their reality is the only one.

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Re: Do You Believe In Magic?

Postby Merlyn » 14 Apr 2012, 20:02

Is magic simply ritual that brings us closer to the Divine through that ritual, or is it tapping into some spiritual power and changing things in the apparent world?


First I would say there are different aspects and perspectives here too.
What a Wiccan might answer, Druid or say if King Solomon was alive...

But the question was posed to us, what do we do.
Once the discipline, learning, growth and all is achieved, I think Wiccans and Druids do much the same, we no longer need a wand or any kind of "device".
I see all in all. I need not cast a circle etc. However in this same light, I do bring into life the natural symbols which express each season, want to put a blessing or reminder of intent.

Magical becomes "natural"
Magic in song, chant & dance as example.
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Re: Do You Believe In Magic?

Postby Bart » 14 Apr 2012, 21:56

Frenn wrote:
Bart wrote:This being the skeptical druid:
...
Does anybody have some scientific data on it?


This being the skeptical druid I would pose a few questions.
Since when does a justified belief of a skeptic require scientific data to back it? Doesn't scientific data only support the claim that something is likely to be true, or is true for the statistically significant domain of the experiment? This is one of the problems of inductive arguments, that is to say the premises of the argument only make the conclusion likely to be true.
In a situation like this, I would say that it is better for us to keep to deductive arguments, with as few, clearly stated, premises as possible.
To pre-emptively head off some objections, I would refer to Rene Descartes Meditations, if only to show that one can skeptically doubt very many things, and still draw a conclusion without scientific data (his arguments are quite solid if one presumes that one's understanding of logic is correct).

To be honest, I'm not entirely sure how we could apply deductive reasoning to the question of magic, other than going through some of St. Augustine's and Thomas Aquinas' theological arguments and beliefs in regards to Catholicism.


The scientific method states everything is not different untill statiscally proven otherwise. To claim it exists, a laboratory test is best. This way all influences are usually in check.

Conclusions in philosophy can be made easily, a number of different contradicting schools exist. The problem with I think therefor I exist, who guarantees I think. Maybe we all are a daydream of a disturbed deity. We will only find out after death. I think most of us will be surprised, maybe the athists are right, maybe the Asatru.

The problem is that a lot of the modern magick, has a lot of psychology in it. Allmost all guided mediatations take you through the first steps of hypnosis. The true magic is the power of the mind. We are able to lead ourselves in any direction. I have no clue on the old hard core magic like voodoo or winti. But a bit of psychology will probably be included, doing rituals has to do with one's mind.
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Re: Do You Believe In Magic?

Postby DJ Droood » 14 Apr 2012, 23:16

Bart wrote:I think most of us will be surprised, maybe the athists are right, maybe the Asatru.


Wouldn't it be awful to drift off, expecting eternal peace and quiet, and wake up in the middle of a mead hall with non-stop partying and smelly louts telling the same stories over and over again for eternity..."Yea, then I sliced him up the middle and took his sheep...argg!"
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Re: Do You Believe In Magic?

Postby Merlyn » 15 Apr 2012, 01:47

Wouldn't it be awful to drift off, expecting eternal peace and quiet, and wake up in the middle of a mead hall with non-stop partying and smelly louts telling the same stories over and over again for eternity..."Yea, then I sliced him up the middle and took his sheep...argg!"


:-) For some that would be heaven, non-stop ale and poker :gulp: :fence: :shiner: :shiner: :spiral: :spiral: :sick: :guinness:

So... "magic" is by most people's definition (best I can tell) most often, that which cannot be explained by science. (used to be, that which isn't dictated by religion :duck: still is for many..)
I circle back.."Can we believe in what we do not understand" (able to be defined, peer reviewed and proven by science) ? I would have to say many "say so". I also think on closer look it is more like "with some reservations-doubts".
What we do to explore and learn is always limited by what we can understand...scientifically... too often.
Magic opens the mind to all the other possibilities, and then these possibilites do happen because they are possible. How many things imagined in an artist’s mind have come to reality, as example. Imagination is a powerful form of magic. The psychology of imagination is something which can be nurtured, brought to a more healthy level and be disciplined.

Then.. can we believe in what we imagine?
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Re: Do You Believe In Magic?

Postby Equidae » 15 Apr 2012, 06:35

Then it's settled! We are so making this new heaven. Screw you guys, I'm getting wasted for eternity :gulp: !

Seriously though, I think what a lot of people consider supernatural tend to fall along the lines of quantum entanglement or visualization leading to realization. I really don't like bringing the quantum mechanics bit into this since a lot of newager Oprah cultist types have hijacked it into becoming some sort of quasi-deity that we can influence into getting us everything we ever wanted.
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Re: Do You Believe In Magic?

Postby Bart » 15 Apr 2012, 09:54

Merlyn wrote:

Then.. can we believe in what we imagine?


Enter unicorns, leprachauns, psychosis, delerium and Jenna Talackova.

Believing requires faith, but if you think you know it all you're wrong. The only thing we know for sure, is that we know nothing. We all create our own universe, some believe its done "the secret" style, others just build la la land in reality. In the end the Moirai will decide.
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Re: Do You Believe In Magic?

Postby DJ Droood » 15 Apr 2012, 12:15

Bart wrote:
Merlyn wrote:

Then.. can we believe in what we imagine?


Enter unicorns, leprachauns, psychosis, delerium and Jenna Talackova.

Believing requires faith, but if you think you know it all you're wrong. The only thing we know for sure, is that we know nothing. We all create our own universe, some believe its done "the secret" style, others just build la la land in reality. In the end the Moirai will decide.

Perhaps I am the odd Druid out at DHP , but I find the idea of a shared , common reality more comforting and comprehensible than this 'we all create our own reality' philosophy. I like to think we are all in this together and sharing and helping one another.
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Re: Do You Believe In Magic?

Postby Red Raven » 15 Apr 2012, 13:33

DJ Droood wrote:Perhaps I am the odd Druid out at DHP , but I find the idea of a shared , common reality more comforting and comprehensible than this 'we all create our own reality' philosophy. I like to think we are all in this together and sharing and helping one another.


No, you are not the odd one out.
I would rather ask questions than sit comfortably in silence.

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Re: Do You Believe In Magic?

Postby DJ Droood » 15 Apr 2012, 14:10

Bart wrote:In the end the Moirai will decide.


You had me googling Moirai, Bart...better know to me as the Fates, it turns out...but this paragraph in their wiki descriptor caught my eye:
It seems that Moira is related with Tekmor (proof, ordinance) and with Ananke, who were primeval goddesses in mythical cosmogonies. The ancient Greek writers might call this power Moira or Ananke, and even the gods could not alter what was ordained.[4] The concept of a universal principle of natural order, has been compared with similar concepts in other cultures like the Vedic Rta, the Avestan Asha (Arta) and the Egyptian Maat.


So perhaps we all operate under the same universal principle, even the gods.
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Re: Do You Believe In Magic?

Postby Merlyn » 15 Apr 2012, 14:10

Disciplined,
That is a key word in imagination. We create our grove, and that is a discipline.
Without imagination, we perhaps would still be picking berries and hunting Buffalo :-)
With a core idea comes the science that makes it all happen, these two go hand-in-hand. They are often seen as opposite sides of the fence, while it is really using math that at a time was considered godly to know.

Is druidry any different from other ways to the divine?
In some ways yes. And to the OP question, is it OK to seek the divine for our self? In structured religion we rely on a priest who devotes his life to seeking and communicating the divine. This as we know is ripe for abuse, that has led to the renaissance of personal divinity. In a sense druidism as we know it today is taking a personal responsibility to devoting at least a few years of our life to learn divinity for ourselves. One of the conundrums of neo-druidism today is the feeling that we should then teach it.

It isn’t really communicated from one person to another however, it is rather a study of a wide range of age old beliefs and the practice enabling us to seek and find what is divine in a spectrum of ways. How each person finds what is the universe within will vary by a number of ways. Our own personal environment is key, how we are "internally wired" is another big factor. These two things need to be discovered, and trial and error often lend to guide us to what really works for us individually. This often IMO because we are no longer isolated and our roots come from many different places on earth. Earth itself has a diversity in environment. What is learned by a person in the desert will be different from what is learned by a person in a temperate climate with four seasons as example.

Finding "our" face of god.
More and more we find though that the core values all are similar, and things like the idea of hell, the reality of Valhalla, the seeking of ascent to heaven, all go far back in history, far far back, long before Christ or any of the Judaist religions. What druidism can be, is way to use these core seeking methods to make new and real a divine link for us today.
Those in control by subjugation will of course rail against this idea, and make all manner of claims that it cannot happen, even though they themselves did do for themselves. go figure eh?

The responsibility to this end is to realize and have good judgment. This takes a discipline, and that often means for most, we will have to train ourselves and even give ourselves a chance away from distractions, learn meditation, empower our mind-body and light-body.

We then become more vital, better attuned, balanced and able.
In a world full of distraction, total BS and lies, the clarity found by any number of self divine paths, druidry as one of them, is well worth the effort.
We do however as mentioned see people take this too far, lack the real discipline and even be delusional.

Most of the Bardic grade is spent getting in rhythm, finding the beat of nature and getting the grounding needed to go further.
The Ovate grade is a grand exploration, time to exercise and really dig.
The Druid grade then becomes time to sort out all we find, "dial it all in" and form our views, pick our chosen path and move ahead with life.

I do not think it is a "parlor trick", not at all.
It is a learning I frankly wish all people would do in one way or another without the kind of delusion that religions often carry with them.
As I brought to this conversation earlier, would Christ want anyone persecuted for not being a Christian? Yet the crusades and inquisitions and witch burnings happened.
The human tendency for "wanting to be right" is large and ego driven. The discipline of druidism is to avoid this at all costs, and in fact to make clear that such ego driven ideas are as far away from the idea of self divinity as possible.

We then see the "love of all existence" as a prime goal, meaning the acceptance of "natural justice". These go hand-in-hand, to accept that our reality is not "the" reality. It is just ours. And in that precious, just like everyone else.

This unique reality to each of us breeds a cross-pollination of imagination, an "alive" kinship and way to always grow and never find ourselves stuck in a funk. It is OK to always continue to seek, learn more and aspire.

That is what druidism is all about.
Religion defines the divine, or tries to, in the simple pages of one book..by comparison.
P.S.
It is important to consider that:
All that is written in the bible or Koran etc, is often "out of context". We all know how that works in the media, message boards and so on.
It is important to then put things "in context" when seeking meaning from things written 2000+ years ago.
All too many things are gerrymandered to meet an ego driven goal of being right, and making someone else wrong.

This kind of lording and subjugation fails in the face of true self divinity. It then becomes obvious and in some ways discouraging.
We however then need to show by example and not preach or try to teach. Offer ways, many ways to others to seek. Become accepting and learn from what others find.
Then we all have something to discuss over a few beers :grin: :beer:

If we were all the same, we would be sad, bored and frustrated people. :wink:
Fully vesting ourselves in the age-old tradition of the three stages of druidry will result in may positive ways. I believe that the results make all of our choices better, better balanced, and unlike religion, still flexable, able to use imagination, not afraid to break tradition and try new things. this is why the early Drui were respected, solved problems well, were good teachers, lawyers and more.

In light,
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Re: Do You Believe In Magic?

Postby Abfalter » 16 Apr 2012, 09:29

Until the renaissance, Magic was a science taught at universities and was based on the topics astrology, physics and meta-physics, math and geometry and, interestingly enough, yet not surprisingly, music (think of how the bards had three general scores having specific effects.) In essence, magic was what the common folk weren’t able to do and understand. Insofar was a Druid, who could design a grove in a way that certain astrological moments had particular effects at special times of the year for those present in the grove, a magician. :old:

I think of magic as a technique of influencing people, events and things with otherworldly means. What’s otherworldly, is a variable that has changed over time (as in geometry once was magic, not so much now that we learn it school when we’re kids.) But when I use methods of shamanism to help people today I employ means that still are otherworldly.

Do I need scientific proof? No. I need the honest feedback of the person I am working for; I need to see them getting better. Scientific proof does not make this particular process better, faster, or even working in the first place. And it’s always a particular process. By its very design, shamanic work cannot be duplicated in a laboratory.
In this context, coincidence and placebo are just terms science uses for events it cannot explain. Like in a real estate advertisement “cozy” means “very small,” scientists saying “placebo effect” mean “it works, but we have no clue why.”

Beer: I am really trying to be unbiased, but there is nothing better than Austrian beer! :gulp:

And finally: “Magic is like masturbation while you think about a supermodel?” Really, DJ Droood? Who’d think about those bony racks in a moment like this? :shrug:
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Re: Do You Believe In Magic?

Postby Bart » 16 Apr 2012, 09:55

Placebo effect is very well understood, but originates in the mind. A self fullfilling profecy.

You could allways look at victoria secret supermodels. They actually have a female figure. Or DJ could have referred to the ancient art of Spartan love.
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Re: Do You Believe In Magic?

Postby DJ Droood » 16 Apr 2012, 11:46

Abfalter wrote:And finally: “Magic is like masturbation while you think about a supermodel?” Really, DJ Droood? Who’d think about those bony racks in a moment like this? :shrug:


you are right, of course....it would be a weak, malnourished spell.
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Re: Do You Believe In Magic?

Postby Merlyn » 18 Apr 2012, 13:14

scientists saying “placebo effect” mean “it works, but we have no clue why.”


I have to disagree with that. In study of depression, scientific results more than suggest that the placebo effect is pointing to the fact that drugs do little to really change depression. They can enable it, but the results show only the extremely challenged actually benefit from the drugs. We, today, are a generation of "pill poppers", meaning that we are conditioned to believe that there is a pill for every ailment, so here is how the placebo seems to work. This belief factor IMO is why a placebo in the form of a pill can make people "think" the drug is working when in truth it is their own belief in the placebo that is allowing thier own body to heal. I have to say there is more in the way of placebos, to include religion. As I pointed out, the "power of the collective soul" is an age old placebo/parlor trick.

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7399362n

The mind-body is scientific fact, that the wide range of chemistry in the body will "shut down" when one is depressed. And many get depression when any illness sets in.
We need the mind-body healing most when we are disabled or ill. I agree that a doctor needs to be a part of the cure, and shamanism perhaps, has a large role in working with a patient, suggesting that the inter-human connection is critical in recovery.

The two sides of the fence: doctors vs Reiki, shamans and so on, runs large and mostly due to money. Gerrymandered science for the sake of expensive prescriptions is an injustice to the practice of healing.

Is the knowledge of the mind-body, knowing that a person's attitude will greatly influence the physical condition really just magic?
I don't think science can ignore it, though I will agree that many do.

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Re: Do You Believe In Magic?

Postby Bart » 18 Apr 2012, 16:01

The placebo effect has little to do with the effectivity of pills in depression. The very fact that you pop a Prozac, means it's not placebo (you know that is is a pill). If you are negative towards these pills the placebo works the other way around. They found the effectivity of older medication diminish over time, while new products were introduced. Dr's were convinced that the new drugs must be better and so they were.

The fact that you chose depression makes it difficult. The only area where you excpect some results is in mild depressions, sever depression are a different ball game (require heavier stuff such as electro shock etc) It is also proven that the patient needs additional therapy such as mindfullness. This works best. Depression is a genuine disease, the fact that a lot of stress and burn outs are diagnosed as depression is not right. Claiming that this is why placebo works is wrong. I have read the placebo controlled tests for Viagra on diabled men ( lesion above the waist line in the spinal cord) and a lot of these patients were able to get a erection. Yes you do need mental activity to get Viagra going.

Shaman treatments or any other additional therapy will add to a therapy and at least 30% of the patients will benefit. I claim I can cure at least 30% of most patient groups. Anything above the measured cure rate of an untrained non-medical person maybe attributed to the cure. Maybe.
There once was a cure for overweight, and it work perfectly. Patients had to take it along their food and so they did. Upon further investigation it turned out that the faul taste was enough to stop the patient eating, hence an effect. Hence the need to understand what it is what you do when you treat patients. It may work, continue, but find out why and learn to take the treatments up to the next level.
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Re: Do You Believe In Magic?

Postby Abfalter » 18 Apr 2012, 21:00

What I am really glad about is that nobody is challenging my statement, that Austrian beer is simply the best. :gulp:

But I would like to clarify something about the placebo-issue. What I meant - and not having been precise enough about it, I realise - is that the effects of shamanic healing and other non-scientific methods like Bach Flower Essences, Homeopathy etc. are often attributed to the placebo effect.

Something happens, healing is achieved, but since science can't apply it's narrow set of methods to figure out why, it's "the placebo-effect." But, as several of you have pointed out, the placebo-effect is very well defined and works through the mind.

I think it is a result of the thinking that people practicing medicine and related services as well as "alternative" methods are healers.
According to my experience, it is only the human body that has the means to heal itself. All others merely set the stage so that the body has the possibility to heal. A doctor and his/her team placing screws into a broken hipbone enables the body to let the bone grow together again. The surgery enables the body to heal itself. Similarly medication like antibiotics kills bacteria so that the body has an easier time healing itself etc. etc. It's just not as easy to say what we shamanic practitioners, homeopaths and Bach Flower -- er -- Essentialists? do.

But we are not saying we are doing something and then we don't do it, hoping for the mind to nudge the body into healing, as the placeo-effect would suggest.

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Re: Do You Believe In Magic?

Postby Merlyn » 19 Apr 2012, 02:36

I like way too many beers, so it’s hard to say which is best, as I am a moody beer drinker, drinking what feels right at the time or place. The list of beers I don't like is a shorter list.

Never the less, the practice of the light body is a core essential of our druidry today and in many ways a healing method.
So is just taking a break and a deep breath.

Lots of the problems people have are easily cured if we simply think in terms of the body. But as I just mentioned... we have to "think"...
Our own responsibility for "tuning in" is important.

Is it magic? as the OP asks..
If we look at life as it is, unexplained by science, and thus define it as magical: yes.

So then is beer.. :beer:

If we define life in terms of God, are we really doing anything "un"magical?
If so, then beer is good :beer:

win-win either way. :shake:
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ac o garu, caru Duw.
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Re: Do You Believe In Magic?

Postby Bart » 19 Apr 2012, 09:10

Working with light/energy was an earlier topic in the sceptic druid and there actually is a Cochrane review on the topic. And yes there is some indication energy healing is better than placebo.

Most of the time alternative healers do not want to subdue their therapy to rigourous testing and declare that science will never accept. This is not true. A number of pharmaceutical products are not very well understood when being introduced. Among others the precise working of an anti depressant. But it is still used. The only thing is, it costs milions to have 1 cure registered for efficacy and safety (the latter is often left out in alternative healer discussions) and this is too expensive for most alternative healers.

Both the FDA and the EMA are working on accepting herbal drugs, will be interesting to see what will come through.

The placebo effect has a lot to do with the status of the healer (sjaman, GP etc) if someone does not believe the healer is capable, the therapy will be less effective. Enter the mind. I like my beer a lot better when served cold on a warm day by a sexy waitress than a warm beer on a cold day served a by a biker type barkeeper.

On the topic of herbal extracts: do we include herbal schnapps in our queste for magic? I propose we do.
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Re: Do You Believe In Magic?

Postby DaRC » 19 Apr 2012, 12:24

Abfalter wrote:What I am really glad about is that nobody is challenging my statement, that Austrian beer is simply the best. :gulp:

You mean lager :grin: in the dark depths of many a real ale pub lager is known by many other less complimentary names....
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