Childless by choice

[treegod]

Sorry, is dark humour when you take 2 unrelated events with one being exceptionally tragic then put them together and think that it's funny?

Unrelated? I thought this world was interrelated. Infetility, childless by choice, overpopulation, underpopulation, parent by choice, scarcity of resources compared to mouths to feed, responsible use of resources per person, education of the next generation; they all have a bearing on each other. At least I think so.

Personally I don't find it funny, not even darkly funny. It's morbid. But I guess some people have to laugh, just to remain sane(ish).

[skydove]

Sorry wrong word not events , the strands maybe ie the thread with people pouring out their thoughts on being childless or not and trying to somehow link it to starving children. It was the term dark humour which got me though I dont suppose Aemillius meant it that way at all or finds it funny. We are all - not just the commentators on that particular thread linked into the horrors of world poverty and starvation.I just thought it was a touch unfair on the people who had commented, but again we can all get our consciences pricked in different ways through what people say and write, and sometimes it is hard to truly express what you mean without giving or taking offense to or from someone(well for me anyway).

[DJ Droood]

Sorry wrong word not events , the strands maybe ie the thread with people pouring out their thoughts on being childless or not and trying to somehow link it to starving children. It was the term dark humour which got me though I dont suppose Aemillius meant it that way at all or finds it funny. We are all - not just the commentators on that particular thread linked into the horrors of world poverty and starvation.I just thought it was a touch unfair on the people who had commented, but again we can all get our consciences pricked in different ways through what people say and write, and sometimes it is hard to truly express what you mean without giving or taking offense to or from someone(well for me anyway).

I am a little confused myself..I've found this thread to be thoughtful and honest....are you suggesting, Aemillius, that is is somehow vain to discuss such things when there is horror in the world? I would suggest that we would never discuss anything if we used that yardstick....when you wrote your post, someone was, no doubt, being tortured somewhere in the world for something they wrote or said ...does that invalidate your post or make it darkly humourous? Perhaps I am misunderstanding you.

[Aemilius]

Hello skydove (nice to meet you)....

skydove "Sorry, is dark humour when you take 2 unrelated events with one being exceptionally tragic then put them together and think that it's funny?

You see these two things as not being related, I can respect that, but let me ask you this.... Is there any point at which you would see them as related? In other words.... Obviously a hypothetical question, but is there any point at which you would advocate for some kind of reproductive moratorium (perhaps with added incentives to promote adoption/sponsorship) until existing population and food distribution problems have been addressed? If you don't see them as being related now at 10,000,000 million per year then.... 20,000,000 per year? More? Or, would you absolutely see them as unrelated no matter what the number is? I know it sounds like an extreme question, but right now, it looks to me like it’s already an extremely dire situation....looking forward to your opinion....

treegod "Unrelated? I thought this world was interrelated. Infetility, childless by choice, overpopulation, underpopulation, parent by choice, scarcity of resources compared to mouths to feed, responsible use of resources per person, education of the next generation; they all have a bearing on each other. At least I think soPersonally. I don't find it funny, not even darkly funny. It's morbid. But I guess some people have to laugh, just to remain sane(ish)."

Then....

skydove "Sorry wrong word not events , the strands maybe ie the thread with people pouring out their thoughts on being childless or not and trying to somehow link it to starving children. It was the term dark humour which got me though I dont suppose Aemillius meant it that way at all or finds it funny. We are all - not just the commentators on that particular thread linked into the horrors of world poverty and starvation.I just thought it was a touch unfair on the people who had commented, but again we can all get our consciences pricked in different ways through what people say and write, and sometimes it is hard to truly express what you mean without giving or taking offense to or from someone(well for me anyway).

Sorry, in hindsight maybe not the best choice of words on my part, but that is essentially what happened. After reading the thread I leaned back in my chair, closed my eyes, and that’s the image that came to mind, like some kind of word/picture association. I think I should’ve added though that my response to the thread wasn’t a “hysterical/knee slapping/rolling around on the floor” type of laugh, it was more along the lines of an “involuntary/reflexive/incredulous baffled chuckle” type of laugh, if that makes any sense....

DJDrood “I am a little confused myself.. I've found this thread to be thoughtful and honest....”

I know it was a discomforting post, but I didn’t mean to imply that I think anyone’s being insincere.

DJDrood “....are you suggesting, Aemillius, that it is somehow vain to discuss such things when there is horror in the world?”

Well, I didn’t set out to specifically, but that is the most obvious interpretation of the image that came to mind and it does seem to hint at that, at least when it comes to that kind of horror, you know, the old “slow/agonizing/death by emaciation, seemingly endless holocaust” type of horror.

DJDrood “I would suggest that we would never discuss anything if we used that yardstick....”

I can’t think of a better one. If children are piling up like that (10,000,000 is an absurd number when you think about it), doesn’t it seem logical to stop making more until they’re not piling up anymore? Am I over simplifying?

DJDrood “....when you wrote your post, someone was, no doubt, being tortured somewhere in the world for something they wrote or said ...does that invalidate your post or make it darkly humourous?”

I don’t immediately see the connection there, but you obviously don’t think they’re related either, which naturally leads me to ask you the same question I asked skydove.... Is there any point at which you would see them as related? Obviously a hypothetical question, but is there any point at which you would advocate for some kind of reproductive moratorium (perhaps with added incentives to promote adoption/sponsorship) until existing population and food distribution problems have been addressed? If you don't see them as being related now at 10,000,000 million per year then.... 20,000,000 per year? More? Or, would you absolutely see them as unrelated no matter what the number is?

Not on the “War Path” here and looking forward to reading more of your take....

Emile

[DJ Droood]

I can’t think of a better one. If children are piling up like that (10,000,000 is an absurd number when you think about it), doesn’t it seem logical to stop making more until they’re not piling up anymore? Am I over simplifying?

No no...I need over-simplification...I understand where you are coming from now...many thanks!

[skydove]

Just on the verge of a flu virus here so I may not be quite on the ball and just a short answer.
Yes Amelius I agree that where you are coming from, when faced with the horrors of overpopulation and starvation against a few people looking at their own very specific problems/decisions to having children or not, you might feel overcome with a miasma of dark horror, you were looking at the much broader picture whereas they were looking at it from their own personal viewpoint . It can be such an emotive and deeply sensitive area for many people and can often define who they are in the world, whilst many people appear to give no thought to the matter at all and just seem to produce children willy - nilly. One of my neighbours who is pregnant yet again gleefully said 'all I ever wanted was a big family". At least the people on the thread are thinking deeply about it.
I too think overpopulation by human beings at the root of most of the worlds problems but I do not have easy or hard answers to give you on how to tackle it. I cynically doubt that improved education or persuasion would work with people quickly enough. Which government is powerful enough to act against the entrenched human right to breed and why would they do it in any case when growth in populations seems to be the expected norm?
There doesn't seem to be a political will to get involved in matters of population, enough environmental or societal catastrophes haven't happened yet and the horrific media coverage of starving and dying people are not personally relevant or geographically near enough to make enough ordinary people take any action, particularly if affects their own perceived 'rights'.

[lavouivre]

Perhaps it is time to bring this issue to the Republicans who think that pills and contraception should be part of a nation's debate and should be banned as equals to abortion?

I think religion (and tradition) is a big part of the overpopulation problem. But when it is regulated by politics, like the Chinese today, the Nazis yesterday or of old like the Spartans, Eugenism points its ugly head.

[skydove]

Who could regulate it then and any suggestions how to make it acceptable, or do you not agree that there is a need until we are even further along the road of environmental collapse when it becomes more obvious that something desperately needs to be done and it therefore becomes more socially acceptable to do something? A hard question I know but just in the spirit of debate. I hope i'm not offending anyone by asking, and sorry I'm politically ignorant when it comes to parties from countries outside the uk.

[lavouivre]

Hi Skydove,
The republicans (generalization, sorry!) in the US think that abortion is a crime and is par with killing your child. They also think that contraceptive pills are a crime against life, to a lesser degree but still, so they don't want it to become affordable price-wise. And in a way, they do not take into account women's free will to choose for themselves.

I was just saying that when governments are in charge, there is a high risk to slide towards eugenism - not saying that there shouldn't be any government action. I think some politicians should stop bringing God into women's (and men's) decisions on this topic. I also think there should be a minimum of involvement from the government, maybe with a form of money incentive, so that families with 3-4 children or more would stop receiving so much financial aid or tax breaks. And also, a lot of raising awareness and education. But to bring it to a worlwide level, perhaps we need to organize something UN type. Seing as we can't get countries (like the US) to sign a petition to agree to pollute less, I don't see however how we will get to agree to sign something on having less children??

But you are right: when will we draw the line and finally find some solutions acceptable at some point because we didn't do something sooner? We should begin a thread on overpopulation...

[Aemilius]

Hello lavouivre (nice to meet you)....

lavouivre "....when will we draw the line and finally find some solutions acceptable at some point because we didn't do something sooner?"

My intuition tells me that the time for drawing that line passed somewhere around the beginning of the industrial revolution (give or take a century), and that at current population levels, even if miraculously some acceptable solution could now be found that all agreed upon, it would only serve to delay the inevitable.... the die is cast....

[cryptic_raven]

I might be bringing up a dead thread that people wanted to stay quiet so I apologise in advance! I was going to start a new one but thought I'd run a forum search first and found this topic already existed.

I was talking about these issues with a work colleague yesterday (we both refer to ourselves as "childfree") as we had both had some bad experiences with parents recently. I had gone to the O2 arena to see the Walking with Dinosaurs show over Christmas and had left feeling terrible. The show was great but the lack of control of parents over their children gave me a headache. My colleague had been in a museum and had asked a child who was touching the exhibits and close to damaging something to be careful and got an earful from the child's parent with the phrase "Oh well you're clearly not a parent so you wouldn't understand!"

I find that the judgemental nature from those with and without children applies throughout all of society. Coming from a Catholic background (now ex-Catholic fyi), I got rather sick and tired of the attitude that you aren't a "real" woman if you haven't had children. I find this approach towards gay marriage in the UK equally frustrating as the church defence of choice at the moment is that gay couples can't consummate or procreate, ergo their marriage isn't valid. Different topic but same irritation.

All through society you get people giving their opinion "as a mother" or that they are someone dramatically stronger as people because they've had a child. Now I'm not knocking the hard work that goes into being a parent (my Mum was a childminder so I raised lots of other people's kids when I was younger) but I often feel rather isolated by society for not having sprogs. I don't want to have children for a myriad of different personal, health and ethical reasons. The ethical ones (which are the reasons I am only comfortable with sharing in public) are to do with overpopulation and overuse of resources, many of which other posters have summarised well already. You can be a green as possible but the minute you have a child, your carbon footprint rockets in size. That and other stats have put me off completely. However, while I am not judgemental necessarily of those who do want to have kids, I do think that people having over two children might need to consider the impact that they are having on their society and the planet.

All of this sort of stuff and how offensive people can be on both sides sometimes (not necessarily on this forum though!) has been bugging me recently and I felt even more uncomfortable when I read some pagan-related material which emphasised the themes of motherhood, reproduction and birth. While I get the overall ideas are appropriate in the context of nature worship, I started getting a bit paranoid about my status as a woman especially now I've started training with OBOD. Thankfully a lot of you on this thread have put those concerns and paranoia to rest with many of you stating that you don't want/don't have/are ok with kids. It reassures me, as many things on these forums generally do, that OBODies are generally a good bunch so thank you!

I'm not quite sure what the point of my post is really but I just wanted to chip in and say "Yes! I too do not want children for many reasons and its ok to not do that!". What do other people feel about the motherhood emphasis in certain pagan teachings and how do they resolve them in their day-to-day practice? Any thoughts (from guys and gals alike) would be most appreciated.

[Bracken]

I read some pagan-related material which emphasised the themes of motherhood, reproduction and birth...
What do other people feel about the motherhood emphasis in certain pagan teachings and how do they resolve them in their day-to-day practice?

I almost think this, although related, has a slightly different emphasis to the original discussion.

I'm not a soldier and I've never been to war, but I can see how identification with or contemplation of a warrior Goddess might very well help me in any daily battle I had to face.

Whatever the circumstances, we all had a Mother. Regardless of what came after our births, for the first months of our existences we were carried in our mothers' bodies. Our experiences of being mothered or not are at the very deepest root of our psyches, our personalities, our emotional selves. The archetype of the Mother and our relationship to Her is going to be tied in to our experiences, good or otherwise. So I think that the presence of the Mother in paganism may have as much to do with being a child as any decision whether to give birth ourselves or not. Being a child is something every human has had experience of, and as adults we still carry memories of childhood and have childish needs.

Btw cryptic raven, I love your avatar. Did you draw/paint it yourself?

[cryptic_raven]

I almost think this, although related, has a slightly different emphasis to the original discussion.

I'm not a soldier and I've never been to war, but I can see how identification with or contemplation of a warrior Goddess might very well help me in any daily battle I had to face.

Whatever the circumstances, we all had a Mother. Regardless of what came after our births, for the first months of our existences we were carried in our mothers' bodies. Our experiences of being mothered or not are at the very deepest root of our psyches, our personalities, our emotional selves. The archetype of the Mother and our relationship to Her is going to be tied in to our experiences, good or otherwise. So I think that the presence of the Mother in paganism may have as much to do with being a child as any decision whether to give birth ourselves or not. Being a child is something every human has had experience of, and as adults we still carry memories of childhood and have childish needs.

A lot of what you've said makes sense to me and I'm now looking at the topic in a slightly different way. Thanks!

[Aphritha]

I got rather sick and tired of the attitude that you aren't a "real" woman if you haven't had children.

Yeah, this annoys me too. I actually am a parent, so don't know how appropriate it is for me to post here, but society's attitudes towards motherhood annoys me greatly. Whether a person has children or does not have children shouldn't make up their personal identity. I find so many women hiding behind their kids as an excuse not to develop their potential, and it bothers me. To be fair though, its as if you're expected to on a mainstream whole, and they're simply doing what's expected of them. (There goes my inner Libra with the fairness again...) I just don't really understand why this is.

I too like alot of what Braken said. Also, to me the mother symbolism in Paganism can mean more than just literal mother. I see her more as a nurturer, and as humans we can nurture more than just a child. A garden, an artistic talent, our mates, or heck, even our mothers!

[ShadowCat]

We are childless by choice ourselves. It was never really a big issue: I said when I was small that I didn't want kids and haven't changed my feelings to this day, and my s.o. has never had the urge to procreate. Since we have a bit of an agedifference, a few years back we talked about it as in "now or never" because he's 14 years older and I wouldn't want kids to have a grandpa as a dad. It was "never" and we made things (medically) final.

Our social circle now knows it, but they have bugged us for years. I've taken to getting remedial rude with some people, just to get them thinking. To one mom who doesn't teach her kids any bit of respect for other people, animals or anything I said -when she was bugging me for the umpth time while her kids wreaked havoc on the place- "I wanted to have kids, but then I saw yours and I reconsidered". To another one I told her I couldn't get kids, she looked taken aback and began stuttering apologies. I told her then that I can probably but a good friend of mine can't and she is really hurt by those questions, so please, think before you ask.

The pagan circles where woman should be mothers are not quite "there" yet. To be putting "nurturing, caring, gentle" to female and "strong, providing, protecting" to male is really to shallow. The strongest warrior can also be the gentlest around kids and animals. If we would have had kids, I would be climbing trees with them and my s.o. would be wiping noses probably. Yet he's very much a man and I'm a woman. There's a difference between our biological bodies we call our own and our soul, which is not male or female, and maybe not even only human, but just "is".

[Aphritha]

To another one I told her I couldn't get kids, she looked taken aback and began stuttering apologies. I told her then that I can probably but a good friend of mine can't and she is really hurt by those questions, so please, think before you ask.

Yes, I wish more people were conscious of this. I feel its very rude to ask such things, as birth seems to be a function of the body. You don't ask a person about when they plan on using the bathroom or how their ear drainage is, why is it alright to ask someone this?(Though perhaps if you are comfortable enough to ask the other two questions, you may be close enough to ask the first...) Also, assuming a person is pregnant without knowing...no good! Quite embaressing for a person for you to ask a due date and having to tell them its just a beer gut...

[athelia143]

OK - not entirely sure this is a topic for a Druid Parenting section of the board, but wasn't sure where else to put it.
Just wondered if any one else out there is childless by choice, and if this has anything to do with your spirituality or not? Anyone think it is un-pagan?
What has sparked me asking is that I've just returned from a local pagan group gathering which is all female, and have come away feeling drained and fairly upset. I was the only one attending who was either not pregnant or had no children. I was made to feel entirely defined by this status, and was quizzed a fair bit about my reproductive status. Part of me does know that I should worry what others think, but, another part is really quite hurt and upset.Interested to hear others views.

PS ...my choice to be childless is not because I hate children.

I am childless by choice and my reasoning is that I believe children should be 100% wanted and I definitely do not want them. I don't dislike children, but I don't have the patience for them and have too much else going on in my life. My mother did not want kids and we knew that growing up. I couldn't do that to a child. I've known it since I was a child and my husband is 17 years older than me. It just wouldn't work, but we're very happy not having kids. The way kids are being raised today scares the heck out of me and I would probably be charged with being negligent for allowing my child to walk to school on his own. (Some parents in the USA have been charged with this because they let the kids take the bus or train to school on their own.)

It doesn't surprise me that others might seem to be judging you based on the fact that you don't have kids. I get that all the time too. If I were to say I can't have kids, people would likely understand. I just tell folks that I don't want kids and never have. Many react in surprise, but I am also relieved to say that many of them say "At least you are aware of that and don't just have kids because you were expected to." (That often makes me wonder if they didn't really want their kids either!) Only a few have given me the replies of "It's different when they're your own" or "You'll change your mind later". I'm 37 years old and my husband is 54. We're not going to change our minds. We like being able to go out at night on a whim or go away on vacation with no worries.

It's gotten to the point where I actually have a little fun when someone pops the question about kids.

The weirdest one I got was a college student last Summer who was going door to door doing a survey on parenting for his course. I opened the door and the first thing he said to me was "Are you the mom?" (no "Hi there" or anything, just "Are you the mom?")

I said "Young man, I am no one's 'mom', nor do I ever wish to be. Just because I am in my late 30's and live in a suburban neighbourhood does not automatically make me a parent." The poor thing didn't seem to know how to respond to that, so I advised him to consider his wording at the next house by saying something to the effect of: "Hello, my name is _______ and I am doing a survey on parenting for my college course. Would you be willing to answer some questions?" (At which point, he could ask if the person at the door is a parent.) Honestly, I can always tell who the parents are because the kids are usually visible or at least audible in the background when they answer the door. My quiet house, devoid of toys lying everywhere, should have been a dead giveaway!

The second weirdest was a telemarketer trying to sell cable TV to me. I said "I don't want cable TV, thank you." He asked, "Well, don't you have kids who watch TV?" I said "No, I didn't want them either!" He hung up, having no idea how to respond to that one!

Unfortunately, we live in a child-centric society. (At least in North America we do - I can't speak for other continents.) Everything seems to be about children, from movies to advertising and everything in between. Ads for insurance companies on the radio feature kids telling adults who to go to for insurance. (Seriously!) Parents are very involved in their children's lives, which is where the term "helicopter parents" comes from. You rarely see kids taking initiative to do things without their parents around; even going door to door to ask other kids in the neighbourhood to come out and play. A kid did that in my neighbourhood last year and my 30 year old neighbour who has 3 kids, freaked right out. Apparently kids have to be taken to play-dates by their parents, not find their own friends. I thought it showed some sort of initiative or leadership skill, but she just looked at me like I was on crack. I never see my neighbour's kids outside. She has them enrolled in 6 out-of-school activities and their socializing comes from play dates or organized sports. I kind of fear for their future because they will have no idea how to do anything on their own.

Everyone around drives their kids to and from school, rain or shine, even if they live a block away from the school. The schools in my city have created two-lane drop-off areas for the 80+ minivans that are parked out there every morning and every afternoon. When I was a kid, those who had to be walked to the bus stop or school by their parents got laughed at for being "mamma's boys". The only time we got driven to school was if the temperature was below -25 degrees Celcius or there was a ton of snow. How times have changed.

Schools are not allowed to give failing grades where I live lest that hurts the child's feelings and parents are even accompanying kids to their job and college interviews.

Things will change as each generation grows up, but it's funny how people still get judged based on if they have kids or not. I'm proud of my choice to be child-less and I don't let anyone make me feel bad about it. If you are happy with your choice then be happy. Not everyone has to be a parent and that's okay.

Anyway, I'd better get off this soapbox now...

Athelia /|\

[athelia143]

Quite embaressing for a person for you to ask a due date and having to tell them its just a beer gut...

I always cheerily reply: "No, I'm not pregnant. I'm just fat, thanks." The red-faced response I usually get hopefully means that the person has just learned a valuable lesson in how to not open a conversation.

Athelia /|\

[ShadowCat]

Wow Athelia,

A lot of similarities in our stories...
Always nice to know I'm not the only "weird one" around

This "American parenting" hasn't filtered through to Europe yet, we Dutch let our kids glady ride their bikes alone for 10 miles to and from school, through dark forests and rain, storm and snow. Guess we're collectively guilty of criminal neglect.

[cryptic_raven]

Wow Athelia,

A lot of similarities in our stories...
Always nice to know I'm not the only "weird one" around

This "American parenting" hasn't filtered through to Europe yet, we Dutch let our kids glady ride their bikes alone for 10 miles to and from school, through dark forests and rain, storm and snow. Guess we're collectively guilty of criminal neglect.

Unfortunately Europe isn't completely safe as the UK is very Americanised in that way. Even when buses are provided to take kids to school, parents will still drive them or drive them a few metres to the school door. I find it very sad.

Thanks to everyone for sharing, I've found it all very interesting and quite reassuring that I'm not alone in my choice!