The Germanic Path

[Kernos]

Eilthireach,

we could set up a Germanic tribe in your woodlands...

But I want to move to Southern Germany and be buried with my ancestors. Is Germany any easier to migrate to than the rest of Europe? I am too old for most countries without being wealthy.

The Romans are played by all the bureaucrats in all the governments and corporations we deal with. We start at the top with Bush!!!

[marija]

Eilthireach,

we could set up a Germanic tribe in your woodlands...

But I want to move to Southern Germany and be buried with my ancestors. Is Germany any easier to migrate to than the rest of Europe? I am too old for most countries without being wealthy.

The Romans are played by all the bureaucrats in all the governments and corporations we deal with. We start at the top with Bush!!!

Can you get German citizenship via a relative (ie. father?) My boyfriend is in the process of getting his Irish Citizenship (he has Irish through his mum, and German through his dad) since Ireland doesn't require the renunciation of other citizenships.

[Eilthireach]

Kernos,

you don't need to have German citizenship to be able to live in Germany. But you need a residence permit (Aufenthaltserlaubnis) issued by the immigration office (Ausländerbehörde). For Americans it is relatively easy to get one, but you still need to have a "good" reason to come here. A present or former association with the US military would help, or if you had closer relatives living here, or if you work for a US firm in Germany, something like this. Otherwise you have to be rich.

In view of the deteriorating economical, political and social situation in Germany I would rather advise against living here, though. People who want to have a good live try to get out of here. A friend of mine has emigrated to Vietnam. He earns double money there and needs only half.
Sometimes I could imagine to live in a cosy thatched cottage somewhere in the green heart of England. But most of the times I want to stay exactly here, where the Alps meet the plains, where clear streams rush into lakes and where the kings of my people are buried.

With greetings from the foothills of the Bavarian Alps,

Eilthireach.

http://www.bayern.by/portal/frontend.ph ... 320b4f9709

[DaRC]

In view of the deteriorating economical, political and social situation in Germany I would rather advise against living here, though. People who want to have a good life try to get out of here....
<snip>
Sometimes I could imagine to live in a cosy thatched cottage somewhere in the green heart of England.

Hey Eilthireach your comments for Germany also apply to England!
Why do you think anybody who can is emigrating to France, Spain, Romania... where they can afford a good living.

A cosy thatched cottage round where I live will set you back a good 1/2 million Euro's.

Cheers, Dave.

[Eilthireach]

Hello Dave!

A cosy thatched cottage round where I live will set you back a good 1/2 million Euro's.

You have just destroyed the dream of my old days. :crying:

On the other hand, for 1/2 million Euros I can buy me just a three room flat in Munich, so the cottage is still the better deal.

Anyway!

I think we should try to work our way back to the original bunch of topics. And since I am already talking to you I could as well start in England.

From the Ealdriht and Anglo-Saxon Heathenism pages I can see that a lot seems to be known about Anglo-Saxon festivals, beliefs and even the language seems to be well known. Where does this knowledge come from? Certainly the Germanic Anglo-Saxons didn't write more then their fellows that remained on the continent?
In Germany, almost nothing was written down before 800 CE. Nothing that we know of.

Have a nice day,

Eilthireach

[DaRC]

Hi Eilthireach,
I shall do a quick response first and then dig around for some links later...

there is quite a bit of written Anglo-Saxon about in several texts.
Beowulf is, of course, the most famous but outside of this there is some poetry and there is the Exeter book that contains various pieces including the 90 or so zen-like Riddles.

All of this is written in the Xtian age, although stories like Beowulf can be traced back to the pre-Xtian time. Most of it was written between 7th Century and 1066 (when the Norman's imposed French / Latin on the country).

Then there are the Latin texts that came out of the Monasteries / Kingdoms - the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle and various others provide insight into the period and the (hmmm trying to remember) council of Whitby (???) where the decision to support the Roman Catholic calendar instead of the Celtic Calendar was taken provides much information on festivals.
Also the Celts and later Roman's provide insights into the 5th & 6th Century plus the work of Archaeology. On the Isle of Thanet they think they have found Hengist / Horsa's settlement.

So there has also been a lot of work within the Universities upon the Anglo-Saxons - upto recently learning Anglo-Saxon was the basis of any University English degree : which is why poets like Ted Hughes produced poems like 'Wodwo'.

I shall try and dig up some links later. Cheers, Dave.

[Eilthireach]

Hello Dave,

thank you very much so far. This is very interesting and most of it is new to me.

For Germany, the linguistic situation is not so lucky.

The oldest written form of German language is called Old High German (Althochdeutsch), used roughly 750 - 1050 CE. Old High German is no uniform language, but a group of related Westgermanic languages existing south of the so called "Benrath-Line" (a town near Düsseldorf).
The languages north of this line (including Northern Germany and the Netherlands) are called Old Saxon or Old Low German.

Since Old High German was just a group of related languages, a common written language did not exist. Instead, Old Bavarian differs from Old Frankonian, Old Alemannic texts and so on.

The Old High German texts that we know of today consist mostly of church texts like prayers, baptism vows, bible translations. Only rarely there are profane works like the Hildebrandslied or short fragments like inscriptions or spells.

A new generation of German literature was created from ca. 1050 onwards. By this time the language had changed so much already that it is called Middle High German. Middle High German texts already firmly Christian, with very few exemptions.

Before Old High German scientists speak of "Common Germanic" language, a common Germanic stock from which all later Germanic languages have developed. There are attempts at reconstruction of this language for scholarly purposes, pretty much as it is done with Indo-Germanic, but the real language is lost.

This pretty much sums up to this: For the reconstruction of pre-Christian Germanic culture we have a few glimpses from 750 to 1050. We can't use what comes behind and we don't know what was before, other than through a few Latin texts and from archaeology. The veils of history....

Eilthireach, digging in the language department

[Kernos]

There is of course the Anglo Saxon Chronicle which is, btw online in toto:

http://www.britannia.com/history/docs/asintro2.html

Welcome to Britannia's online version of the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, one of the most important documents that has come down to us from the middle ages. It was originally compiled on the orders of King Alfred the Great in approximately A.D. 890, and subsequently maintained and added to by generations of anonymous scribes until the middle of the 12th Century. The original language was Anglo-Saxon (Old English), but later entries were probably made in an early form of Middle English.

We like to think of this document as the ultimate timeline of British history from its beginnings up to the end of the reign of King Stephen in 1154. The Chronicle certainly does not present us with a complete history of those times and is probably not 100% accurate, either, but that doesn't diminish its enormous value in helping us to arrive at a clearer picture of what actually happened in Britain over a thousand years ago.

The entire Chronicle runs to almost 100,000 words and so is a bit unwieldy, in one piece. We have trimmed it down into 52 manageable bites and have arranged it by date, so that you can pick a date below and click to see what was going on, during those years.

[Eilthireach]

Hello all!

Thank you Kernos for this link.

I've come across an interesting question.

In continental Europe, Celtic and Germanic tribes coexisted, especially in the Roman Rhine provinces.
The Celts had a kind of writing taboo.
I don't know if the Germanic peoples had such a taboo as well, fact is that they didn't write much either and it might be safe to assume that they were analphabets, besides the one or other Rune master doing some short Runic inscriptions.

Some Celts moved to the British Isles and Ireland. In Ireland they were confronted with Christianity and started to write like men possessed once the taboo had fallen away. -> Celtic book art.

Some Germanic tribes moved to the British Isles as well and they obviously started to write as well, in their own language! -> The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle.

On the continent, the Celts were assimilated, romanized before somebody could teach them how to write.
The Germanic people on the continent were brought Christianity, but there is no significant literature before 1050. Only some ecclesiastical works in Latin. In the contrary to the tribes on the British Isles, the Germanic people on the continent refused to write, in whatever language.

Why was there such an anti-writing climate on the continent?

I will see what I can find on this.

Eilthireach /|\ .

[DaRC]

Hi Eilthireach,
well much like Germany of the time England during the Early Medieval Period (or Dark Ages as it was previously known) had many different dialects / languages. Each of the Saxon groupings - South, East, Middle & West were different and then the Mercian's and Angles had different languages too.

Beowulf is written in a particular language which was probably different to it's original spoken one.

There is the question with the Celts of how much of their writing in Greek etc... was destroyed. In Ireland it's possible that they wrote more but the Church destroyed most of it plus much would have perished anyway.
There was also the influence of the Monasteries which the Irish christians were at the forefront of creating so the amount of writing may reflect the Irish influence OR the Romano-British.

Anyway here are some links :

http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/eng/index.htm
http://www.technozen.com/exeter/

http://www.northvegr.org/siteindex.php
this has the Life of King Alfred, The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, Bede's History of England as well as Gildas

http://www.heorot.dk/woden-9herbs-i-txt.html
http://www.heorot.dk/beo-suppl.html
Particularly look at the Lacnunga text

http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~fealcen/vanicve.htm
has a lot of info' too - particularly in the back issues of Wain.

Cheers, Dave.

[astrocelt]

Greetings Eilthireach,

Quite agree with Dave’s comments that the majority of the documents, which may assist you in the quest, are likely to be of the ecclesiastical kind. Specifically when dealing with early aspects of paganism within Germany. The scholar Ian Wood remarks that the early German church Cannons are a source. As some of these discuss methods taken to eradicate such practices, inclusive of remarking on rituals and rites of passage too. Another source is the ecclesiastical legislation where it is also directed at the same theme. The introduction of the church Penitential is another source that may be of interest. Overall and together they may well give insights into the country folk practices within the region.

There is the written word of the early missionaries; the Vita Anskarii http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/anskar.html will be a valuable source of information when accessing a semi pagan society through the perceptions of missionary work. St Martin of Tours notes in the “History of the Franks” book 2, chapter 10, that heathens made images out of the wood being that of nature and worshiping them. Of course making images of deities where derived from Roman influence. The Celts that raided Delphi found it quite amusing to find images of deities, 8-900 years earlier, if I recall, but I digress.

The remarks of Wynfrith or Boniface http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/wi ... iface.html, may be revealing when it’s noted that Germanic people of the period late 7th early 8th century undertook sacrifices to Jupiter. Elsewhere references to open worship and once again sacrifice to tress, springs, divination and incantations may also be noted. There is also the affair recorded about bringing down the oak tree of Gaesmered, dedicated to Jupiter. Plus he subsequent consulting of the deities undertaken by drawing lots, which took three days, which decide his fate from undertaking such an action.

Perhaps the scholar David Wilson remarks is of interest, as he noted that the 8th century Germanic practices is comparable to those in Anglo Saxon England. However care needs to be taken as the later pagan practices from the tenth and eleventh century refers to those of Scandinavian practices and does not relate to the earlier ones.

There is a new electronic journal available on line dealing specifically with Germanic mythology and folklore available in PDF format published this year. It could be a valuable source of information. http://www.history-journals.de/articles ... 00182.html. However there are many other links available, which is worth exploring.

Blessings
Astrocelt
/|\

[Eilthireach]

Hello Dave and Astrocelt!

Wow!! Thank you!

Now I know what to study for approximately the rest of this winter.

Greetings from across the Channel,

Eilthireach.

[SeaDruid]

Great links folks, thanks!

[rowanwyze]

SeaDruid and others in the area,
Wagner's Der Ringen des Niebelungen is performed by the Seattle Opera about every 5 years or so, it took him 26 years to write it, and it takes 4 nights to view it. The opera is about Sigurd the Dragon Slayer, a scary Fafnir who hoards stolen gold, love affairs gone awry, the Valkyrie Brunnhilde, flying horses who are sons of Slepnir, and the Gods intervening in the affairs of men to their doom in the Ragnarock.
Of course, the opera is "auf Deutsch." There will be 3 cycles in August, 2005. Tickets can be had now.
I have seen it many times, and it is one reason I moved back to Washington, believe it or not!
Tyra

[SeaDruid]

Well, I think the Seattle opera might be sold out. Then again I must confess to not being much of an opera fan, although I try. I had a hard enough time with "Deutsch lieder" in college language class.

For those with more modern tastes, may I suggest http://www.dennyweb.com/viking_kittens.htm for humor and http://www.tyr.net/videors.asp?Cmd=9 for more serious Viking heavy metal fans.

[Eilthireach]

Hello all,

may I take you on a little excursion?

Wagner was financially supported by King Ludwig II. of Bavaria, the famous "fairytale king". Without the king, Wagner would never have been able to write all his music.

King Ludwig II. was a very idealistic man, deeply involved in the arts and an admirer of everything beautiful, especially the beauty of nature. He used to speak to trees (a Druid?) and especially loved the Alpine wilderness. He erected three castles in some of the most beautiful landscapes of the Bavarian Alps, all of which are magnets for tourists from the world over up to the present day. Neuschwanstein castle has lots of stunning murals inside depicting incidents from the Nibelung Saga.

Unfortunately, Ludwig became more and more eccentric later on and the government found it difficult to deal with him, so they dethroned and arrested him on the pretext of a mental illness. Just one day later, the king found his death in lake Starnberger See in 1886 at the age of 40.

The circumstances of his death remain unknown to the present day and life and death of king Ludwig II. form one of the most fascinating and mysterious facets of Bavarian history. He remains the most famous of all the kings of Bavaria and he is still held in high regard by the people of the Alpine area.
On the evening of his birthday, August 25, the people of the mountain village of Oberammergau still light fires on several surrounding mountain summits in his memory.

Auf den Bergen wohnt die Freiheit
auf den Bergen ist es schön
wo des König Ludwigs Zweiten
alle seine Schlösser steh'n.

On the mountains there is freedom
on the mountains there is beauty
where King Ludwig the Second's
all his castles stand.
(The King Ludwig Song - Bavarian traditional)

http://www.schwangau.de/en/king_ludwig2.html

Eilthireach /|\.

[Eilthireach]

Hello all,

I have the impression that early English / Anglo-Saxon sources might be more useful in the attempt to learn something about the culture of continental European Germanic tribes than Scandinavian sources. English texts are closer, both geographically and from the time frame.

I think that England was settled by the Angles and the Saxons from the south and there were also Scandinavian/Viking settlements in Scotland and Northern England (York etc.). Was there ever a meeting between Northern and Southern Germanic tribes? Did they consider themselves as related? Did they eventually mix up?

It is funny how I always looked at England as "Celtic" and never saw its Germanic heritage.

Eilthireach.

[DaRC]

Eilthireach

You must be about the only one who does!
The Celts (by that I mean the modern areas seen as Celtic) see us as of definite German origin.
Culturally our Celtic heritage has been denied for many centuries particularly from the 15th Century onwards where the Irish were regarded as sub-human.
The Scots call us Sassenach (Saxons) - however nationalism is a strange beast - most lowland Scots are as Sassenach as you or I.

However I did find a reference to a book that might interest you:

Source: C. H. Talbot, The Anglo-Saxon Missionaries in Germany (London: Sheed and Ward, 1954), pp. 45-46.
Talbot's source: The Life of St. Boniface by Willibald, written between 754 and 768.

Cheers, Dave

[Eilthireach]

Hello Dave!

Thank you for the book recommendation. It is interesting to notice that despite the relative proximity of Rome most of the Christian misson was carried out by 1.) Irish and Scottish and 2.) Anglo-Saxon missionaries. Their traces are still highly visible in Bavaria, if you know where to look.

Funny. England is definitely seen as Celtic in Germany. Glastonbury, King Arthur and all this. I think this might have to do with that everything Germanic still is not very much "en vogue" over here. Pagans in Germany tend to start out on a Celtic path, even in areas where no Celtic heritage exists.
It's like "the Celts are cool" and the Germanic people are still widely looked upon as barbarians. After the discovery of the Star Disk of Nebra it looked like the tide would turn, but the effect was short-lived.

Have a nice weekend!

Eilthireach.

[Eilthireach]

Hello all!

While studying the source texts, I have noticed that in the contrary to the Celtic tradition, the Germanic traditions seems to be make not unfrequent use of negative magic. The German term is "Schadenzauber", meaning "harmful magic". I have no doubt that this kind of magic was actually practised.

At the same time I wonder why, because with the Web of Wyrd the people had to take into account that they cause negative effects for themselves, not "threefold", but "somehow". The only thing possible is to protect oneself from the repercussions of one's negative acts, but then I would be skeptic how this should work - nobody is exempt from the way Wyrd works. Or the cosmic laws, if you want so.

Is there a possible explanation?

Have a blessed season of Yule!

Eilthireach.