The Germanic Path

[Eilthireach]

Speaking about Yule, I recently came across this story:

In the Bavarian tradition, the "Christ Child" is born on Christmas. It is the Christ Child who brings the presents, not Santa Claus.

Interestingly, the Christ Child is mostly depicted as a little girl with long, blond hair and a flowing long white dress, almost like medieval depictions of angels, sometimes even with wings. It is definitely not a boy, a baby Jesus. In present-day enactments like Christmas market openings and such, the Christ Child still appears as blond girl in white or silber robe.

If we consider that in German and Bavarian language, the Sun is female (and the Moon is male=die Sonne, der Mond), this makes very much sense: On the Winter Solstice, the Sun is born, personified as a little girl. Jesus was just superimposed on the ancient myth. The name changed, the background, the myth, the ritual structures stayed.

The "Christ Child" on the following picture is from the Bavarian city of Forchheim.

Eilthireach.

[SeaDruid]

So, does the female Christ Child have a role beyond bringing presents in these traditions?

[astrocelt]

Greetings Eilthireach et al,

The gender association to the planets is the key here. The Sun is mostly always female in hunter gathering societies. The gender changes to male, with the introduction of agriculture into the regions. This is, in most cases becomes reflected through mythical sexual cosmology concepts reflected in most cultures. In turn it explains an understanding in story form, which can then be more widely disseminated. E.g. explains how seeds germinate within the soil or in turn the miraculous birth of a child from the earth via the new rays of the solstice sun. The concept of a female birth is rather archaic, likely to relate to the forthcoming fertility of the Land as the sun heats up the earth. Alternatively it becomes a reflection of humans understanding their own procreation process, which becomes transferred to regional agricultural divinities.

I suspect something similar is occurring in the Baltic region with the dispute between Laima and Dalia as the PIE brought agriculture into the Baltic.

However there is a very strong assumption this is an archaic tradition; pre-agricultural, which has travelled across human memory from the account given, and continues to be re-enacted in our time.

Blessing from Dyffryn Nantlle
Astrocelt

[Eilthireach]

Hello SeaDruid, Astrocelt!

Astrocelt, as always your insight is really helpful.

I found out that the sun (seo sun) was also female in Anglo-Saxon (Old English). Unfortunately I found no way to look up the gender of the sun in the Scandinavian languages. Might be a common Germanic thing.

SeaDruid, the Christ Child has no other (ritual) functions. In true folk custom, it is invisible. When I was a child, I was told that the Christ Child comes out of the forest and into the living room through the key hole of the door, to put down the presents. The whole appearance is very spirit- or angel-like.

Santa Claus has his day on the evening of the feast day of St. Nicholas, December 6. He does traditionally *not* appear on Christmas. Recently, though, a vague "Father Christmas" figure has been introduced by the Christmas industry, but this has no cultural background.

Le beannachd,

Eilthireach.

[astrocelt]

Grettings Eilthireach

Many thanks for the compliment, the majority of ones insights can be backed up academically. However a wider search area is likely to reveal a common thread.

Blessings
astrocelt

[Eilthireach]

Hello all!

I would like to try to talk once more about negative magic in the Germanic tradition. The use of negative magic is not unfrequently described in the source texts and there is evidence of it even in contemporary writings e.g. Freya Aswynn's "Northern Mystery and Magic".

One of the basic Germanic beliefs is that of Wyrd. It is a complex system, but if we reduce its meanings to one phrase, it is basically that every action will have a re-action, will cause an effect.

After all that I know about magic, the effect of negative magic
A. will be negative and
B. will somehow return to the initiator.

There are techniques described how to protect oneself from the repercussions of negative magic, but in my opinion this would mean that the laws of Wyrd would be rendered unefficient then - and this does not go together with my understanding of Wyrd as basic cosmic law.

So, these are my questions:

1. Does negative magic play a role in your belief?
2. Do you think it is possible to place Wyrd out of effect?
3. If not, why would somebody still want to work negative magic?
4. Does the fact that negative magic probably had a place in it, affect your view of Germanic religion? Or would you say that's an element that has just become obsolete with time?

Eilthireach /|\.

[marija]

A lot of people tend to forget Eastern Europe when trying to research Solar & Lunar Deities.

I always find that odd.

[DaRC]

I found out that the sun (seo sun) was also female in Anglo-Saxon (Old English). Unfortunately I found no way to look up the gender of the sun in the Scandinavian languages. Might be a common Germanic thing.
He does traditionally *not* appear on Christmas. Recently, though, a vague "Father Christmas" figure has been introduced by the Christmas industry, but this has no cultural background.

Hi,
well Sunna is female in the Norse / Teutonic tradition. So this is where we (Germans, English and Nordic) countries have a consistent tradition.
Manni, her brother, is the Moon and probably where the folk tales of the man in the moon comes from.

As to Father Christmas he is an old English spirit of Xmas. He goes back a long way and is often represented as Time or Saturn (as in Saturnalia to the Romans). Our modern Xmas traditions seem to be a synchronisation of many strands of (mostly) pagan traditions.

Thanks for the info' that the Child of Light is Sunna. I was explaining to my sister on Xmas day that the reason we have wreaths on the door is for the death of the Old Sun at the Solstice.

The wheel of the year turn, Yule.

Then on the 25th the New Sun is born. If you watch the sunrise on the horizon upto the 21st it is waning. It's only by the 25th that you can actually see the change of it's waxing.

Cheers, Dave.

[Jeb]

1. Does negative magic play a role in your belief?
2. Do you think it is possible to place Wyrd out of effect?
3. If not, why would somebody still want to work negative magic?
4. Does the fact that negative magic probably had a place in it, affect your view of Germanic religion? Or would you say that's an element that has just become obsolete with time?

Great questions, Eilthireach. Here are some of my thoughts (as they stand at the moment).

1. Does negative magic play a role in your belief?

Not really. What I mean is that I don't practice it but see it as a fully functioning "force" in this world. It's there but I don't really concern myself with it.

2. Do you think it is possible to place Wyrd out of effect?

I don't think so. But I'm not sure we mortals can really determine how our Wyrd is shaped/woven. Is it based on absolutes? (This action was good; that action was bad.) On objective observations by whatever forces make up the Web of Wyrd?

Or is it all relative? (Weeeeeelll... this action was good here, today; that action was bad there, yesterday.)

Or is it a personal subconscious subjective basis? Or even based on collective communal observations over the ages?

I don't know, but part of me feels that it is somewhat subjective, based on what an individual's (or group's, perhaps) concept is of negative and positive actions. See below.

3. If not, why would somebody still want to work negative magic?

If they think they are justified in doing so perhaps this negates the "negativity" of the action? For example (though not particularly magickal in nature), didn't the ancestors have something called "weregild"? In a situation where someone is killed "wrongfully" didn't the surviving members of the family have the right (nay, obligation) to demand retribution either by exacting the death of the culprit (a rather negative "an eye for an eye" retaliation) or by extracting x amount of money in repayment for the deed? I'd imagine that at times like this they would be very conscious of their Wyrd, Orlog, and Hamingja and would take actions that they felt were in their best interest. Would the same not have applied to magick? Using a niding pole to attack an enemy who has caused you damage may actually have been thought to strengthen your Hamingja (luck/power) and therefore cause you no troubles with Wyrd.

4. Does the fact that negative magic probably had a place in it, affect your view of Germanic religion? Or would you say that's an element that has just become obsolete with time?

"Time makes ancient good uncouth".

Hard to answer. I guess it does affect my view a little. I think largely though, it agrees with a lot of the mythology. Things aren't black and white in the Lore. Loki, for example... bad guy? Good guy? Depends.

I think we do though have to keep in mind our modern culture and perceptions when considering the use of negative magick. I think there are better ways of attacking a problem, attacking it from "the other end". For me, personally, negative magick is an obsolete element of the religion.

[DaRC]

There are techniques described how to protect oneself from the repercussions of negative magic, but in my opinion this would mean that the laws of Wyrd would be rendered unefficient then - and this does not go together with my understanding of Wyrd as basic cosmic law.

So, these are my questions:

1. Does negative magic play a role in your belief?
2. Do you think it is possible to place Wyrd out of effect?
3. If not, why would somebody still want to work negative magic?
4. Does the fact that negative magic probably had a place in it, affect your view of Germanic religion? Or would you say that's an element that has just become obsolete with time?

Eilthireach /|\.

I would say that this is where the difference between Wyrd and Orlog comes in. The concept you describe reminds me of a mix of karma and the wiccan rule of 3. I don't think of Wyrd like that.
For a simple simile of Wyrd I would envision it as something like the Matrix.
However my view of Orlog would fit in with the use of magic and protection from the negative effects.

The sagas are full of examples of people using Nithing poles etc... to effect negative magic. How can you have positive magic without negative magic?

However effecting negative magic will have negative repercussions. Much like throwing a punch.

So my four answers would be
1. Yes
2. No
3. Revenge, or any other negative reason.
4. No, nor would I say it's obsolete.

Cheers, Dave.

[rowanwyze]

I believe that our actions influence our orlog and innengarth to varying degrees. Do you think that the Fates are influenced by deeds? This is how I think we can change wyrd, but that's my own opinion. Tyra

[Jeb]

Maybe this is a good point in the discussion for folks to share their personal definitions of some of these germanic concepts (Tyra and Dave already started this a bit with Wyrd and Orlog, here and in the comfort thread; thanks guys).

I've always figured Orlog is kind of like family karma. If we don't do anything in our lives, our Wyrd is influenced largely by our Orlog. We can add to this influence (for better of worse) by actually doing things (of course, it's hard not to "do things" in life). I don't know if this is the best way of looking at it or not.

Dave, you mentioned Wyrd being like the Matrix. Would you make a distinction between the "Well of Wyrd" and the "Web of Wyrd"? Or are they the same?

[urbandruid]

Would any practitioners of Northern / Germanic Tradition like to comment on whether it's possible for a non-theist to take this practice on board? What I mean is, is it necessary to have a belief system rooted in the Germanic pantheon to effectively follow this tradition, or can the deities be transferred to aspects of the psyche or Spirit.

The reason I'm asking is that whilst I have found this tradition intriguing (currently browsing Teutonic Magic / Teutonic Religion by Kvedulf Gundarsson) for a while, I can't reconcile the host of gods, godesses and giants with my beliefs.

Anyone tried?

Blessings,
Steve

[DaRC]

Hi all,
I pretty much agree with Tyra about Orlog.
Which is what differentiates the heathen view from other concepts like Kismet/Karma which are much more fatalistic.
Orlog is directly affected by your actions and reactions.

I think that the terms well or web of wyrd are two views of the same concept.
Wyrd being the multi-dimensional weaving of the universe, controlled by the Norns.
Orlog could be viewed as your personal thread of that weaving. Of course that thread is formed from various strands.
Each kindred forms a pattern of interwoven Orlog's and that expands outwards into the overall web of Wyrd.
How you act and react to things influences your personal Orlog which then resonates within the pattern and affects Wyrd.
So to apply some chaos theory; the butterfly wing of a single Orlog can resonate and cause a major affect on the overall web of Wyrd.

I also believe the Celts had a similar conceptual view within the concept of Oran Mor; the big music.
Where the universe is seen as an orchestral piece of divine music.
Tolkien taps into this in the first part of the Silmarillion.

Of course this is just my personal view. Cheers, Dave.

P.S. UrbanDruid there are number of Atheist Asatru. Dirk Bruere is one on alt.religion.asastru; for many of them the Gods effectively relate to Jungian archetypes.

[rowanwyze]

Hi UrbanDruid --
Dave pretty much answered your questions, I think about non-theists and our gods.
My own opinion (for what it's worth) isn't the same. Of course, Heathenry cannot be painted with one stroke of a brush but I do think that the gods are the gods, period. I don't think they are manifestations of energy or male and female spirits or that. I am a true polytheist, not a pantheist. But, our religion differed among regions, tribes and clans, and was widely influenced by Celtic input, and remember the Vikings settled and established commerce as far as Baghdad, Rome and the Hebrides. They certainly bought back and left behind traces of beliefs that were inculcated into practice and life.
There is a historical website devoted exclusively to northern european pre-xian heathenry, http://www.northvegr.org, and I enjoy exchanges there, and reading and studying the history they have available. But I am not in lock step with their beliefs solely. That is why we can have such a wide practice without stepping on each other's toes.
SeaDruid, remarkably, was active in establishing Asatru in Vinland as a religious expression and for that he should be proud. I'm not a member of the Asatru movement, but I don't have any problem or issues with them as a group at all.
Look at our own selves here: We are Celtic, we are Heathen, we are Spiritual.
Quite an amalgam, isn't it?
Frith
TR

[SeaDruid]

Aw Rowanwyze, ya' make me blush

I played a tiny role in spreading the word around about Asatru when it was much less known that it is today. I am proud that I played my part in the trenches, but it was just a little bit. Others did much more.

What I mean is, is it necessary to have a belief system rooted in the Germanic pantheon to effectively follow this tradition, or can the deities be transferred to aspects of the psyche or Spirit.

Having led a fairly eclectic spiritual life my (current) opinion is that adding/removing/modifying large aspects of a tradition makes it no longer a tradition and dilutes its meaningfulness. I know what you mean by "effectively" in regards to magick (after all, in chaos magick that is really the only criterion) but I don't think the word really applies to a traditional practice. It is as it is. I think you can practice some of the ethical and relationship aspects of the tradition, but I don't think you can leave out the gods and have the same thing. Your milage may vary of course and if you believe the gods to be archetypes or such than that is what you believe. I tend to believe that there is a creative unity beyond the gods and that all of us, including the gods, are manifestations of that unity, but I don't think that is a traditional view (although I always wondered where Ginnungagap was supposed to come from...but I suppose the idea of something that was uncreated and always existed is difficult to grasp whenter it is a sacred unity or a sacred void).

[rowanwyze]

SeaDruid -- yes, the great cow that licked the first man from the ice block had to come from somewhere.
I agree that there is "something" beyond the gods, but that "something" I don't ken at this time, but perhaps later.
Other divine forces do exist.
And stop blushing, and thank you!
Tyra

[urbandruid]

SeaDruid and Rowanwyze: Thankyou, you answered my question quite plainly.

Just for the record though, I do distinguish between non-theism (belief in a greater force but it's not held up for scrutiny or classification) and atheism (absence of any greater force).

DaRC: Thanks, knowing that, I may come back to looking at it later in life.

Blessings,
Steve.

[Soliwo]

Orlog seems quite similas in shap to the Dutch word "oorlog", which means war. Quite funny.

[Eilthireach]

Hello all!

Dave has written:

I would say that this is where the difference between Wyrd and Orlog comes in. The concept you describe reminds me of a mix of karma and the wiccan rule of 3. I don't think of Wyrd like that.

Dave is right. I openly admit that I didn't come across a description of the concept of Wyrd so far that would have "clicked" with me. I find that part of the Germanic world view (and how they viewed the soul and all this) extremely complicated. There is a lengthy article on The Troth's website ( http://www.thetroth.org/resources/ourtroth/soul.html ) but on first try I found it rather undigestable...
Your definitions later on did help a bit, though.

All of you basically say that the Wyrd can be influenced by one's deeds. This would mean that the Wyrd is not irreversible "cosmic law", but rather a web of interconnected possibilities. Somewhere else I have read the expression "ill wyrd". This could mean anything from "predestination" or "predisposition" to just a moment of bad luck.
I think it was Tyra who said that the Germanic religion was not fatalistic. This struck a chord with me. Our Germanic ancestors are always described as active, industrious people who took "their fate into their own hands". They sailed to the ends of the world, were brave in battle and daring as merchants and inventors. These are certainly not the features of fatalistic people who see no chance to escape their preset fate. There must be possibilities to influence one's Wyrd. This brings negative magic into the game. Dave has said that there is no positive magic without negative magic. It is a very basic truth that to everything positive there is something negative and if we don't believe in predestined fate, we have the choice.
I think there has something fallen into place now in my mind. Thank you all.

SeaDruid,

honoring the Germanic part of our heritage in Germany is still extremely difficult because of the abuse of that heritage and the public opinion that "everything Germanic", including the Runes, must have something to do with the nazis. Funding for archaeological and historical research into Germanic culture has been almost non-existent until recently, while every Roman stone is well known to us. The publication situation is difficult, Germanic pagan books published in German are extremely rare.
We in Germany are therefore greatly indebted to folks in Great Britain and the US who follow the Germanic path, dig into research, publish books and websites and provide open forums. These are the places where the ancestral Germanic heritage is preserved and developed and it is done very well. Sometimes it is necessary that wisdom goes abroad in order to survive. A big THANK YOU from me as well!!

By the way, I have found an extremely pleasing website:

http://www.odinlives.org/

This is an Asatru radio station in Maine, USA. They provide an archive of their broadcasts, which are a really pleasant and interesting mix of Germanic and Celtic folk music and talks and information. I have never heard something like this before!

I think it is significant that "Asatru" contains "tru" which is "Treue" (fidelity, faith) in German. I think in modern esoteric circles it has become fashionable to blend everything together: a little Crowley here, something Egyptian there, something from Tibet on top and something Celtic in between. I might be not totally innocent here myself. Some people say "if it works for you, it's okay". There is some truth in these words, but at the same time one is running danger to lose something very valuable, the feeling of being at home in a true tradition.... If one has developed a practice of many different elements, one has just that. If one belongs to a true tradition, one's roots are going back far, making up a connection with the ancestors, with the land itself and providing a strong stand in the storms of time.

I think here might be one of the biggest differences between Asatru and Heathenism on the one and Druidry on the other side. Druidry can be many things, a religion, a philosophy, a world view, an initiatory magical path etc. Every question like "how do you see Druidry" will provoke lots of different answers. The Germanic traditions are more clearly defined: They are a religion. Period. "One of the basic functions of a religion is to offer a set of values on which to base one's actions. This, sadly, is one area where Paganism has often failed." (From "The Values of Asatru")

I do enjoy this discussion, this thread is a true place of learning. Thank you!

With best wishes from beneath the Bavarian Alps,

Eilthireach.