The Germanic Path

[Lily]

Those radio shows are really good! and you can donwnload them too, probably could put it on a mp3 player.

Unfortunately, the cliche strikes again in this respect: the current sponsoring link leads not only to Thor's Hammer Jewelry but also to slightly white supremacist opinions. Exactly why I have reservations about Asatru. It is sad that this is so blatant.

You know, the view that druidry is more "open" than asatru is, well, relative. I would love to be able to follow a more historically accurate or culturally appropriate form of druidry. But it is close to impossible, isn't it.

I still really wonder what asatru ritual forms are actually historical. In fact I know nothing at all about asatru ritual, perhaps someone could enlighten us. 'Specially about the sources of same.

[Eilthireach]

Hello Lily,

if your refer to this "Odin Brotherhood" I must say that this book is more than dubious, an approach to Odinism that is obviously based mostly on a hatred of Christianity. This is simply not Asatru, because Asatru, as any other serious pagan tradition, teaches to respect other people's faith.

Part of hospitality is treating other people with respect and dignity. Some overenthusiastic practioners of Asatru express their pride in their faith by behaving rudely to members of other faiths. Hospitality isn't something to be extended just to other Heathens.
(The Values of Asatru)

Asatru is neither a racist nor supremacist spirituality. There is an interesting article on the importance (or non-importance) of race in Asatru under

http://www.thetroth.org/resources/ourtroth/race.html

Asatru is more outspokenly an ethnic tradition than OBOD Druidry is. Asatru is a modern approach to the spirituality of the peoples of Northern Europe and Scandinavia, just as Druidry is largely a modern approach to the spirituality of the British Isles and Ireland. While the OBOD would never deny admission to a member of, say, African American descent, we can indeed observe that OBODies of African American descent are extremely rare in our ranks.

Ethnic concerns do play a role in spirituality. For example, I have noticed that many OBODies coming from German speaking countries and Holland find easier access to the Runes than to Ogham. Myself, I had extreme difficulties with the Cad Goddeu, I simply found no handle where to grab the whole topic. I came to the result that this must be a very insular Celtic thing and that it's simply not in my genes. What can I do?

Cliches, by the way, exist about Druidry, the Celts and paganism as well. Cliches are the enemies of understanding.

I am unable to give an overview of Asatru ritual and seasonal rites here because the topic is rather voluminous. I understand that the main sources for Asatru rituals are the Eddas (clear) and Sagas (like Heimskringla Saga) and there are some scholarly publications as well, like Jacob Grimm's "Deutsche Mythologie" (Teutonic Mythology), some 1,500 pages in two volumes that I completed recently (uff!).

There is an extensive ritual and festival section here:

http://www.thetroth.org/resources/ourtroth/feasts.html

In all, the source text situation seems to be slightly better for Asatru than in the Celtic traditions. One reason for this might be that Christianity was adopted much later in the Scandinavian countries where many of these texts come from.

Eilthireach /|\.

[OswaldJenkins]

Can anyone describe Asatru ritual to us? How much is ancient, how much is modern?

I have hardly found anything by googling (my interest is passing enough that I won't buy a book)...

the Odinic rite is a really good site which I have studied for use in performing blots and sumbels

the last sumbel I performed could only be done with juice(since I can't get alcholol) I did a hammer blessing over the cup and thanked Thor for watching over me and Loki for guiding me to my potential and invoked the blessings of cuchulain and Vlad the Impaler

[Lady Nimue]

Interesting.....you cannot purchase alchohol...so you are underage, and yet very adiment about your beliefs.....interesting.
There are some very wise people here OJ...I hope you enjoy learning...as far as Vlad goes..if you are invoking him, I ask myself about your intent...I also wonder if you know the difference between invoking and evoking...if not, again there is much to learn form this board.
I sometimes find listening with an open mind helps the learning process.

[Lily]

cuchulain in an asatru ritual. interesting if a little off. Invoking Loki, on the other hand is usually not a good idea, don' t you think?

[Pooka]

I did a hammer blessing over the cup and thanked Thor for watching over me and Loki for guiding me to my potential and invoked the blessings of cuchulain and Vlad the Impaler

Tell me, did you actually receive the blessings of Vlad the Impaler?

[Jeb]

I did a hammer blessing over the cup and thanked Thor for watching over me and Loki for guiding me to my potential and invoked the blessings of cuchulain and Vlad the Impaler

Tell me, did you actually receive the blessings of Vlad the Impaler?

I wonder what kind of blessings Vlad would have to offer? From what little I know of him he seems to be a pretty bad dude. Could you shed a little light on this? I don't want to fall into the trap of forming my opinion of him based simply on his reputation. I know Loki and Cuchulain have both a dark and light side. Does Vlad have a light side?

[Lady Nimue]

Actually Jeb, that is a brilliant question...perhaps, I did rush to judgment about Vlad...does he indeed, have a light side, as most things do?

[OswaldJenkins]

I wouldn't exactly call it a light side...but he was a virtues patriotic warrior...those are my reason for putting his blessings on the cup and looking up to him

[Merlyn]

Dracula (Vlad) Hard to believe such a life by today's standards.
What this man did before he was twenty!

Things were very different back then..

[Jeb]

I wouldn't exactly call it a light side...but he was a virtues patriotic warrior...those are my reason for putting his blessings on the cup and looking up to him

A virtuous warrior? I've been reading a bit about him on a few websites (biographies and such) with a thought towards seeking out some of this virtue. I must confess, I'm having trouble finding it.

From even just a simple Asatru point of view, looking for evidence of the Nine Noble Virtues, I find him severely lacking.

Certainly he was couragous... perhaps to the point of recklessness. And he exercised perserverance.

But he was notably lacking in hospitality:

In one particular incident, Turkish ambassadors who had refused to remove their Phrygian caps in his presence were asked why they insulted him in such a manner. When they replied it was because their hats had to remain on their heads according to custom, he graciously honored their tradition by ordering their hats permanently nailed to their heads, never to be removed again.

And likewise he seems also to be lacking in many of the other virtues I would consider praiseworthy from a heathen point of view.

Is it only because he was a good warrior that you honour him? I wonder if this is not dangerous. I'd watch out that some of his more negative attributes aren't siphoned off into your ve during your ritual.

This is just my opinion of course. It may well be that he fills a hole that needs filling and thus completes a balance in your spirituality. Dunno. But, hey, whatever works for you.

Just as an aside, would you ever consider invoking the blessings of other notorious villians... like, I don't know, say, Charles Manson, or maybe, Adolf Hitler?

[DaRC]

The thing about invoking Cuchulain, a Celtic Hero, and Vlad, a Christian Hero, within a Blot or Simbel is really mixing things up.

As Eilthireach says earlier in this thread, the thing about Asa-tru is remaining True to the Aesir and Vanir. Cuchulain and Vlad don't fit in that picture.

As to including Loki - that is essential in any Blot however the drink is not drunk but is usually the last drink and is poured on the ground/fire etc.... It is wise to Blot to Thor too as he is the only one of the As capable of, or willing to, control Loki.

As to our modern view of Vlad as 'a notorious villain' that is a modern cultural view heavily influenced by Bram Stoker. Vlad is a hero to his people. At a time when it was not unusual for any King to put a whole city (women, children and livestock) to the sword his actions cannot be regarded as villainous.

To provide a comparison we have "Ivan the Terrible" as a ruler of Russia and "Peter the Great" - however the Russian word for Terrible and Great, in this context, is the same word. It's just that modern historians have decided to translate it for Ivan as Terrible and for Peter as Great. Both committed what we would regard as atrocities - massacres, genocides, fratricides - including murdering their sons. The only historical difference (and the main reason for the difference in translation of their names) is that Ivan FAILED to secure Russia a Baltic Port whilst Peter SUCCEEDED.

Cheers, Dave.

[Jeb]

Some very good points there, Dave. Thanks.

As to our modern view of Vlad as 'a notorious villain' that is a modern cultural view heavily influenced by Bram Stoker.

Funny how that is though. I've heard there was a connection but after reading Dracula I didn't really see it. There certainly dosen't seem to be a connection between the book and the biographies I've been reading. Has Stoker written any other books connected with Vlad?

You're right about the modern cultural view though. If Hitler had won the war perspectives might be different on that one too.

Vlad is a hero to his people. At a time when it was not unusual for any King to put a whole city (women, children and livestock) to the sword his actions cannot be regarded as villainous.

I think that there is a difference between putting a whole city of your enemy's to the sword and doing the same to one of your own cities. Do you think his people cheered when he (supposedly) burned up all the poor people, or do you think they were proud when they looked outside the city gates to see all the impaled victims of Vlad's justice system? These were not foreign enemies, these were (again, supposedly) the men, women and children of his kindgom. I have trouble imagining his people not regarding him as villainous.

Of course, how do I know for sure that these facts are true? Certainly the numbers are exagerated. But even so, is there enough fact there to make me wonder why anyone, even his own people, should see him as a hero? I dunno. I suppose that if the alternative was capture and slaughter at the hands of hostile invaders then I suppose he could have been a hero to them.

Despite all this, Dracula's subjects respected him for fighting the Turks and being a strong ruler. He's remembered today as a patriotic hero who stood up to Turkey and Hungary. He was the last Walachian prince to remain independent from the Ottoman Empire.

from http://www.royalty.nu/Europe/Balkan/Dracula.html

Perhaps this is how he is remembered today. I wonder if he was thought of that way in his own time.

[OswaldJenkins]

I wouldn't exactly call it a light side...but he was a virtues patriotic warrior...those are my reason for putting his blessings on the cup and looking up to him

A virtuous warrior? I've been reading a bit about him on a few websites (biographies and such) with a thought towards seeking out some of this virtue. I must confess, I'm having trouble finding it.

From even just a simple Asatru point of view, looking for evidence of the Nine Noble Virtues, I find him severely lacking.

Certainly he was couragous... perhaps to the point of recklessness. And he exercised perserverance.

But he was notably lacking in hospitality:

In one particular incident, Turkish ambassadors who had refused to remove their Phrygian caps in his presence were asked why they insulted him in such a manner. When they replied it was because their hats had to remain on their heads according to custom, he graciously honored their tradition by ordering their hats permanently nailed to their heads, never to be removed again.

And likewise he seems also to be lacking in many of the other virtues I would consider praiseworthy from a heathen point of view.

Is it only because he was a good warrior that you honour him? I wonder if this is not dangerous. I'd watch out that some of his more negative attributes aren't siphoned off into your ve during your ritual.

This is just my opinion of course. It may well be that he fills a hole that needs filling and thus completes a balance in your spirituality. Dunno. But, hey, whatever works for you.

Just as an aside, would you ever consider invoking the blessings of other notorious villians... like, I don't know, say, Charles Manson, or maybe, Adolf Hitler?

Jeb my good sir you have a lot of very interesting questions...first of all what I meant by virtuous and patriotic was that he was a folkish warrior...many people don't this but in his murders and atrocites he was exterminating pests and fighting vices threatening to the folk...anyway your last question about Charles Manson or Hitler their is no way I could invoke the blessing of that dirty lazy hippy Manson even if gods forbid I wanted to because he is not dead...he would have to be dead for me to do that and anyway even if he was dead he would have to be a famous war hero to the folk of some kind to be able to go to Asgard and we all know that will never happen

[Pooka]

Vlad was just exterminating pests then? And what of Adolf Hitler, what was he doing?

[Kernos]

I wouldn't exactly call it a light side...but he was a virtues patriotic warrior...those are my reason for putting his blessings on the cup and looking up to him

True. He was considered a patriot by his country men because he kept the Ottomans out of Transylvania and defeated them. The mountains helped too.

K

[Douma-CopperLion]

Being a monster movie fanatic myself, I'm especially fond of the Vampyre genre. And so I've always been intrigued by the real life person of Vlad Dracula. For anyone interested I can highly recommend the book "Dracula, Prince of Many Faces - His Life and His Times" by Radu R. Florescu and Raymond T. McNally (pub. by Little Brown & Company). It's a very well researched and concise account of Vlads life and accomplishments. According to the authors he is highly regarded and admired by the people of his country and his political philosophies and policies were emulated by many like Ivan the Terrible and supposedly were the inspiration for "the Prince" by Machavellie (?spelling). The actions of the real Vlad the Impaler were far more horrific than the Hollywood "Dracula".

I don't think I'd want to invoke or evoke this guy for any purpose myself

D

[frank]

I'd avoid invoking Vlad as well, because of context: his viciousness is out of place in the US--Yes, he's empowering, but if you choose to emulate him, you could, as the story goes, end up in a pentitentary some where with a 300 pound, tattooed dude who calls you "cupcake" as your cellmate.

Standards change, and the heroes of one time and place are the monsters of another. The problem is, you're stuck living in your time and place, and so you have to be thoughtful about who you evoke. Better to work with ancestors who can help you succeed where you are, rather than trying to be dark and scary.

Just remember, the future folk heroes of tomoirrow are probably out there in the Third World, dealing drugs to fund their armies, and arming children who are addicted to those same drugs. They have no thought to the consequences, of the lives they're wasting in pursuit of some desire for power. I'm sure, once they're dead and gone, there will be people who think them heroes. Sad.

Frank

[Azrienoch]

Hmmm... As Vlad Tsepes was a war hero in the crusades, that bloody Christian endeavor, and as he killed anyone he even began to suspect of thinking ill of him, he was not considered a patriot by his countrymen. Only the world leaders thought highly of him, and that means the Vatican. So if you're intention is to invoke a personality in which you are a violently paranoid cowardly fanatical Christian, then I say go for it.

[Kernos]

This list from another forum:

A Dictionary of Northern Mythology by Rudolf Simek, Angela Hall

the Poetic Edda (at least two translations. I suggest Larrington, Bellows and, if you can find it, Bray)

The Prose Edda (either Faulkes or Young translations. Brodheur is my favorite but hard to find)

"Norse Myths" by Kevin Crossley-Holland. Think of this as cliff notes for
the Eddas.

"Hammer of the Gods: Anglo-Saxon Paganism in Modern Times " by Swain Wodening -Basic intro to Anglo Saxon heathenry

"Teutonic Religion: Folk Beliefs & Practices of the Northern Tradition (Llewllyn's Teutonic Magic)" by Gundarsson - basic intro to Asatru (hard to find)

"We are Our Deeds" by Eric Wodening-ethics and values

"The Well and the Tree" by Paul Bauschatz. This is not an easy book but it's
worth studying. It discusses time, wyrd, causality and fate in the
Northern context.

"Road to Hel" by H.R. Ellis Davidson - discusses soul, afterlife, etc.

"Gods and Myths of Northern Europe" by H.R. Ellis DAvidson

"Myth and Religion of the North" by Edward Oswald Gabriel Turville-Petre. An excellent study on the religion of the vikings. The facts are well defined and the reasoning behind the conclusions are explained in good detail. This was written as a doctoral thesis and is not a light read.

???"Culture of the Teutons" by Gronbech (three vol. set).

"Exploring the Northern Tradition: A Guide To The Gods, Lore, Rites And Celebrations From The Norse, German And Anglo-saxon Traditions" by Galina Krasskova (yes, i wrote it, but I think it's a good introduction to Heathenry as a whole. it comes out in 5/05).

"Sagas of the Icelanders" edited by Smiley and Kellogg

Njal's Saga
Egil's Saga
Eyrbeggja Saga
Saga of the Volsungs

Kernos